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Different size tile in the same lot

40K views 69 replies 25 participants last post by  ApgarNJ 
#1 ·
I've always told clients that they can pick out their own tile and grout and I will take care of the rest. Especially when it comes to run of the mill bathroom floors.

Lately I've had several clients choose tile from Lowe's. Venetian Porcelain tile to be exact. I've had these tile turn out to be off by as much as 3/16ths of an inch in all three sizes that they offer. 6x6, 12x12, and 16x16. Its to a point I won't even attempt to install this tile any more.

Have any of you guys ever run into different sizes in the same lot? If the homeowner picks up the tile and you come to find different sizes after you are already set up and ready to go, how have you handled it?

I have to admit, both clients I have pulled the offending tile scraped the backs and returned it to Lowes on my time and went back to the tile area and picked through to find the tile I need. Both times were good customers who I've done a ton of work for. Like I said I refuse to deal w/ this tile any more, Just curious to see how common this is for you guys who lay tile all the time. I've dealt w/ all sorts of cheap tile from outlets and have not run across this until this crap from Lowes. Its a shame really very hard nice looking tile too.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
I've always told clients that they can pick out their own tile and grout and I will take care of the rest. Especially when it comes to run of the mill bathroom floors.

Lately I've had several clients choose tile from Lowe's. Venetian Porcelain tile to be exact. I've had these tile turn out to be off by as much as 3/16ths of an inch in all three sizes that they offer. 6x6, 12x12, and 16x16. Its to a point I won't even attempt to install this tile any more.

Have any of you guys ever run into different sizes in the same lot? If the homeowner picks up the tile and you come to find different sizes after you are already set up and ready to go, how have you handled it?

I have to admit, both clients I have pulled the offending tile scraped the backs and returned it to Lowes on my time and went back to the tile area and picked through to find the tile I need. Both times were good customers who I've done a ton of work for. Like I said I refuse to deal w/ this tile any more, Just curious to see how common this is for you guys who lay tile all the time. I've dealt w/ all sorts of cheap tile from outlets and have not run across this until this crap from Lowes. Its a shame really very hard nice looking tile too.
As long as you are just supplying labor, being a 'hired hand' then you're always at the mercy of this happening all the time. As a professional you build experience and expertese by becoming familiar with the nuances, the ins and outs the pros and cons of the materials you install. This allows you to fixed price bid confidently. Homeowners can't be expected to understand that every material has a price point and a place in the market and cheaper doesn't equal better, only cheaper. Until you step into the roll of professional provider for your clients and spec their materials you'll continually be making excuses for your final product as a result of having to deal with inferior products.

If you're going to continue to work this way (letting customers control important materials), then you need to tweak your working and billing methods. You need to take into account that customers will always trip up the finally quality and lengthen install times due to selecting inferior products, (they don't know what you know). But you should get paid for the extra time it takes to work with defective, inferior or cheaper products, knock down cabinets instead of pre-built boxes, cheap fixtures that tend to leak or break upon install. In short you need to make sure you get paid for the extra time involved. If you offer a warranty, I would exclude the products not provided by yourself. It makes no sense to warranty products that customers choose based on price that will not last or will have problems that professional grade products won't.

I'd get something in to your contract and make it's understood that you are TRULLY labor. And therefore you are going to get paid for every minute devoted to their project and the extra time involved in dealing with the products they choose whether they be good or bad and the results. Homeowners tend to step over dollars to pick up pennies, not becaues they are evil, just because they don't know better and never hear about or have their feet held to the fire by contractors trying to make things right with the junk they bought. Many do what you do and eat it for whatever reason they think they should (when they shouldn't) and spend their time doing what you did, instead of being paid for that time.

I'm kind of shocked to hear this is the first time you have ever ran into inferior tile if you have been installing customer provided tile for awhile. What size grout joints are you using? I've got to guess you are using probably 1/4" grout joints in order to have been covering up this problem for so long.
 
#5 ·
I'm kind of shocked to hear this is the first time you have ever ran into inferior tile if you have been installing customer provided tile for awhile. What size grout joints are you using? I've got to guess you are using probably 1/4" grout joints in order to have been covering up this problem for so long.
Actually, I've never installed joints more than 3/16ths. 9 times out of 10 I will use 1/8" for all my installs. I guess I've just been lucky. My grout joints are generally straight as an arrow. I've gotten pretty good at checking walls to make sure of square and level before I start and compensating accordingly. I often find tiles that are a 32nd out and that is easily accounted for as i work my way up the wall.

I don't ALWAYS have customers pick out their own tile, but it is pretty often on those 50 square foot bathroom floors. I've been in business for a little over two years now and I do feel that it is well past time to build some solid relationships w/ reputable tile suppliers in the area. With the way the money has been I just find myself feeling a customer out before we even start the process to see what kind of cash they are going to spend on the project. I'm not yet at a point where I can let the work slide because they don't want to spend twice the cash on their tile. If they want to pick up their own that is fine. If they don't get enough I charge them for my time to go get what is needed.

Maybe I've just gotten into a bad habit of mixing the thinset opening a few boxes of tile and throwing it down. It wouldn't be so bad if I knew ahead of time that the tile was out of whack.

Mike, you've got a hell of a point. I will start putting that in the wording of tile contracts that they are responsible for the quality of the material they supply. If the material is crap to the point that I won't or can't install it, they will have to pay for the time needed to make it right. I understand that this is common sense really, I just needed it to bite me in the ass a few times before I wised up I guess.
 
#7 ·
When I was in the concrete products business (mainly block), most of our customers would not do a job unless they controlled the materials purchased, which affects the end labor and total cost. We saw this daily since our prices were always the highest and some owners/DIYers would try to get a cheaper price and use who they wanted to be just a labor contractor or buddies, but usually it never worked for them and we just got to be a more popular supplier (35-45% of the market) based on the product quality and service. We never cut our prices, but raised them with long advance notice (escalations over a year out on bid jobs), since we needed to allow competitors to survive and take care of the "bottom feeders" that usually had poor or no credit and did not pay on time.
 
#8 ·
All the posts are spot on.

I will always encourage customers to purchase tile through me. If they do, they get a labor "discount". Yes, I have seen same lots purchased at big box store be different. You simply cannot cut a ceramic tile to fit. The factory edge can't be duplicated easily (or at all).
 
#9 ·
Soooooooooooo,

How about a little insight. The choices for tile are endless. How do you present the different choices of tile to your perspective clients? I'd love to have a mobile showroom, but that is not in the cards. I work extensively w/ a design showroom in the area and I can go w/ clients there to go through different options. Super spendy though. Are you working exclusively w/ local suppliers? Can you send customers down w/ instructions to tell them "Angus sent me"? Must you meet them at your supplier?

What works best?
 
#10 ·
Soooooooooooo,

How about a little insight. The choices for tile are endless. How do you present the different choices of tile to your perspective clients? I'd love to have a mobile showroom, but that is not in the cards. I work extensively w/ a design showroom in the area and I can go w/ clients there to go through different options. Super spendy though. Are you working exclusively w/ local suppliers? Can you send customers down w/ instructions to tell them "Angus sent me"? Must you meet them at your supplier?

What works best?
Josh - this is a good topic. I'm curious to hear how Finley goes about it.

Most times when someone approaches me about a tile install, they already have a style, color, size, etc. in mind. I give them a few suppliers/showrooms to go to that I have a working relationship with. If they are dead set on a Home Depot or Lowe's tile, I check it out first, but usually they settle with something from a supplier.
 
#11 ·
I really want to come up w/ a good system for this. Honestly I've been using the ability for a homeowner to choose their own tile as a bit of a gimmick to get my foot in the door. "You are more than welcome to pick out your own tile and pay for it. I'll even pick it up for you on the way in to your job. Sign here."
Like I said, I'm just not a point where I can turn down the bargain hunters. If letting them pick out there own tile makes them feel like they are getting a deal then it often clinches the job.

I do not install tile cheap. Just as an example I won't touch a 50 square foot bathroom floor w/ 12x12 tiles for less than $700. Generally it has worked well for me, but lately its been headache after headache.

Currently I'm really working on getting a higher class of client. I'm definitely moving in the right direction.
 
#14 ·
I really want to come up w/ a good system for this. Honestly I've been using the ability for a homeowner to choose their own tile as a bit of a gimmick to get my foot in the door. "You are more than welcome to pick out your own tile and pay for it. I'll even pick it up for you on the way in to your job. Sign here."
Like I said, I'm just not a point where I can turn down the bargain hunters. If letting them pick out there own tile makes them feel like they are getting a deal then it often clinches the job.

I do not install tile cheap. Just as an example I won't touch a 50 square foot bathroom floor w/ 12x12 tiles for less than $700. Generally it has worked well for me, but lately its been headache after headache.

Currently I'm really working on getting a higher class of client. I'm definitely moving in the right direction.
So that works out to what? $14/sq ft? Are you supplying setting materials and grout? Removal of old floor? Remove and reinstall vanity and crapper?
 
#12 ·
Material discounts

When I bid a job, I always cut the difference between retail and my wholesale price on materials and credit the customer. That way I retain part of the savings and the customer feels like (and actually does) they got a better deal. This also encourages them to NOT go out and get inferrior products.

Holding onto material sources for jobs is getting harder each year. Customers feel that if they read something in a magazine or saw it on line, they've become an expert. I keep a folder of each building system and notes and information of each product I find and how it would work with other systems and products and happily copy them off for customers to read. Educating a customer is often your best step in creating a good relationship.
 
#15 ·
Tile suppliers

I've always told clients that they can pick out their own tile and grout and I will take care of the rest. Especially when it comes to run of the mill bathroom floors.

Lately I've had several clients choose tile from Lowe's. Venetian Porcelain tile to be exact. I've had these tile turn out to be off by as much as 3/16ths of an inch in all three sizes that they offer. 6x6, 12x12, and 16x16. Its to a point I won't even attempt to install this tile any more.

Have any of you guys ever run into different sizes in the same lot? If the homeowner picks up the tile and you come to find different sizes after you are already set up and ready to go, how have you handled it?

I have to admit, both clients I have pulled the offending tile scraped the backs and returned it to Lowes on my time and went back to the tile area and picked through to find the tile I need. Both times were good customers who I've done a ton of work for. Like I said I refuse to deal w/ this tile any more, Just curious to see how common this is for you guys who lay tile all the time. I've dealt w/ all sorts of cheap tile from outlets and have not run across this until this crap from Lowes. Its a shame really very hard nice looking tile too.
I've run into the same issue with a commercial install. The corporation had purchased pallets of tile through Lowe's to do all the bathrooms in 11 retail/storage centers. I found tile that was dimensionally off too. I told the crew to set them aside, but it became too much. We ended up with over 20 boxes of tiles one size, so we used all of them on one site.

Many times, when you work with one tile wholesaler all the time, your piece price will come down to under big box store levels. Wholesalers do monitor your purchasing volumes and it's best to keep purchasing at one wholesaler to keep the discount level up.
 
#52 ·
Great Thread!

I don't post often, but do check around here regularly. I've been going through the same issues with people picking poor materials. There's some good stuff in here to think about.:thumbup:

I've run into the same issue with a commercial install. The corporation had purchased pallets of tile through Lowe's to do all the bathrooms in 11 retail/storage centers. I found tile that was dimensionally off too. I told the crew to set them aside, but it became too much. We ended up with over 20 boxes of tiles one size, so we used all of them on one site.
I installed 24"x24" ungauged quartzite in Vancouver a couple of years ago. The only way was to first stack all 800' of it on edge like a bookcase and sort through from the 3/8"to 7/8" thick. FFS, what a pain. Turned out really nice, though.

Many times, when you work with one tile wholesaler all the time, your piece price will come down to under big box store levels. Wholesalers do monitor your purchasing volumes and it's best to keep purchasing at one wholesaler to keep the discount level up.
I was charged $13.91 and $10.43 for the same piece of Jolly on two different trips in the same day at the same supplier. /scratch head.

The customer thought they had chosen a "quality" tile because it was $1.67 a ft. LOL. Now that is really funny, good quality for under $2.00 a ft. :laughing: I ended up supplying the tiles. They were better than their first selection, but still nothing to write home about.
Jaz
Your website is well done. I like how you arranged the products list into an arrow. I've got to get going on a website, is there any drawbacks in publicly posting your prices? I would guess that when someone contacts you, they're not just kicking tires.


Grid lines.....spacers no bueno.
I haven't done a backsplash with out the ol' PLS3 in a long time. It's hard to argue with frickin' lasers!
 
#23 ·
I haven't run into different sizes out of the same box before. But boy you have to see which "caliber" they are. I think my boxes list 6 different calibers, and each is about 1.5 mm different in size.

If it is a bathroom, I dry lay the tile first, because it takes me a long time to make that cut around the toilet flange. And I like to mark the tile, then set the glue in the toilet flange. I know the toilet will cover this cut, but I'm a bit weird about having it perfect.

Otherwise, set a few boxes of tile in a door jamb, so you can see that they are all the same size. If you're doing a large area, I guess you can set them all out on edge somewhere to make sure about the sizes.
 
#25 ·
I ran across a deal recently where the customer had selected a tile from Lowes which when I check out was a bit off. It was rectangular by just under 1/16", and a little diamond too. I think it was the same tile as the one Josh talks about.

The customer thought they had chosen a "quality" tile because it was $1.67 a ft. LOL. Now that is really funny, good quality for under $2.00 a ft. :laughing: I ended up supplying the tiles. They were better than their first selection, but still nothing to write home about.

Jaz
 
#27 ·
I know DalTile sells other brands of tile, but Dal brand tile is some of the worst sized stuff out there. Maybe not as bad as the $.50 a foot Blowe's stuff, but pretty bad nonetheless. It's not all of Dal's stuff, but I have run into it a time or hunnert in my career.

Having said that, Dal makes a great selection of colors, and the quality is good, aside from the sizing thing.
 
#28 ·
I noticed that around here there is a small selection of daltile in the big box stores... I've been telling people not to buy it there because its probably factory leftovers and batch mismatches that were packaged and sold at a dirt cheap price.
Does anyone have a ProSource Floorcoverings near them? For smaller jobs I send my customers to the showroom to pick and pay for the tile and grout and then I get a 10% check from them
 
#30 ·
I'll give you a review... they are good and have a big selection but like Angus said, you have to call them and let them know who's coming in so that there is no mix ups. In general they are more focused on the sales than the technical side of things(in one instance they mad a bad recomendation on a thinset, Angus helped me out with it and I had to take some tiles down and restart)
On a bigger job I will supply the tile but smaller ones they have a referal program so I send them in to pick and pay, they get a discount which is less than big box pricing and I get checks for 10 %... after that transaction they will have a referal account so if 5 years down the road they buy carpet and use someone else it doesn't matter because I will get a check for 10% of the bill.
The job that I just finished, the cust wanted to redo carpet in another room(I don't install carpet) so she went in picked and paid and I got her hooked up with a carpet installer on there pro-list and I will get an extra $90.00 for doing virtually nothing except for making a phonecall.
Works for me but like I said, don't hang your hat on some of the tech advice that they give
On my 3 most recent jobs, I've made approx $170- in commissions...
 
#33 ·
HS345 said:
I know DalTile sells other brands of tile, but Dal brand tile is some of the worst sized stuff out there.
Greg that is weird. In the past 2 years I've installed 1000's of ft of Dal Continental Slate. It's some of the best porcelain I've used. Actually aside from some wrong colors ordered I have not had issues with any of their sizing.

I dunno. Maybe it's an origin thing. I try to always get tile that's made in the USA.
 
#34 ·
One of the biggest things for competing against lowballers is having a very good core group of suppliers. Mine all know me very well and my clients are set up with a meeting time and the sales person is waiting at the door waiting on them and ONLY them.

For instance I have a client meeting with two suppliers Tuesday for floor and wall tile and a framless shower enclosure. The client will get walked through all the tile styles and colors. I have very little imput, but if I do it's all gone over before the meeting between the supplier and I.

I will install whatever they decide but know before hand it's a quality product. I don't think I've installed a pre-bought material for a couple of years now.

People are so used to going too a box store and doing it themselves that it's a revelation to be waited on.
 
#36 ·
Some of the worst I have had have been American Olean tile. If customers insist on buying their own tiles first I warn them that if they buy me cheap crap that is not square and of the same size I will NOT install it. Most of the problem ceramic tiles have been the 6X6 that they make as a 6X12 and then cut it in half. I refuse to touch them.
I always check the tile first before starting a job to make sure it is the same. If it is crap I show the customer what is wrong and they have no problems returning the product and buying something better. But i have had to return to my supplier also.
 
#37 ·
When I do installs, I am just providing the labor and the HO bought the tile from a box store. I myself tell them it is a great product at the price but you get what you pay for and show them the different size tiles and I write in my invoice for them to sign that I am not resposible if the tile job does not look straight and true. These Box stores buy 2 and 3rd quality or left over tile from tile manufatures and thats why the get deals compared to going to a specialty store who at times sell's first grade stuff. Eddie
 
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