Straw Question

Mike Finley

I'm going to be growing my back yard from seed pretty soon, probably next month. I'll kill off everything with some round up, wait a week then till it all up, adding some amendments and then seed it. I need to put hay or straw, (not sure what the correct term is) over it to help keep it from drying out. I did this once before and I ended up with a lot of hay growing up with the grass! What a pain that was. I had heard there is a special type of hay to use, that won't do this- any ideas?

painterman

Mike,
I'm not a landscape guy,but I do some farming. Hay is dried out grasses that have been cut and bailed to be used as animal feed. Straw is what is left over when the grains have been harvested from the stalks. This is then bailed up the same as hay.Either would work but straw would be the best for holding in moisture.Having said that and again i'm not a landscape guy but in my part of the world we would just water the seed and let nature take its cource.

Stan

Always Greener

Straw (usually wheat straw ideally) is used on newly established / bare soil lawns to both reduce moisture evaporation rates (to achieve better germination) and to prevent washing / erosion of newly planted soil areas.

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www.alwaysgreenerlawn.com

Mike Finley

What Always Greener is saying is what I am talking about. I need it out here in Colorado because the sun will just dry the ground out between waterings the straw will help keep it moist and allow the seed to germinate.

I'm pretty sure what I used last time was just regular bales of straw, a friend of mine had them laying around and gave them too me, but the seeds in the straw germinated along with the grass seed and I spent months plucking what looked like wheat growing all over the lawn.

I thought I had heard landscapers uses irradiated straw or something that has had the seeds 'killed' in it or something so this doesn't happen?

start2finish

the wheat is generally not a problem, it does not compete with the grass. The grass will choke out the wheat. If you are very concerned with the wheat coming up though you may want to look into hydroseeding. 0.10/sq ft $4356/acre

I would buy clean straw and deal with the weeds, after several mowing you will choke the wheat out.

Mike Finley

LOL, that's what I was told last time I did this, believe me the grass won't choke out the wheat, the last time I did this I planted in April I was still pulling those wheat plants out in August. Never again, that was a freaken nightmare.

Don't need to hydro seed, already got my favorite seed in hand. Every heard of Galaxy blend - 3 awesome cultivars of pure Kentucky Blue grass?

Labour of Love

Where I am, hay and straw are 2 very different products (by definition).

As said above, hay has seed heads in it and straw is seedless (or very nearly so).

Go with the straw even though it'll probably be costlier. Just make sure your supplier understands the definitions. I did a job once where the supplier sent half hay and half straw because he didn't have enough straw and said "it's all the same anyway" when I complained. I educated him and haven't had a problem since.

start2finish

It doesn't matter whether or not you have bought the seed or not. You use the same seed if you broadcast or hydroseed it. The mulch for hydroseeding in 100% weed free. You can hand the seed over to whoever is shooting your lawn and he/she will dump it in the water and blast it out. NO WEEDS!! at least from the seeding process, we will always have our birds eating and crapping seeds all over the world.

Mike Finley

Is there a size minimum to be cost effective with hydro seeding? I'm probably looking at 6000 sq ft.

start2finish

around here from 0.10 sq ft to 0.17 sq ft average. 6000 sqft is not too small. should take around 900 gallons of water. one tankload for most or 2 tanks for smaller machines.

I would charge $700.00 to shoot it.

Mike Finley

I see, if I was going to invest that much into it I would probably just buy sod instead. I have $50 invested in a bag of seed and maybe another $200 in a tiller rental and some amendment. I think I will stick with the hand seeding if I can figure out what to put over it that won't grow itself.

mtpgoat

I have the same problem, and going to have to re-seed a back yard of an investment house....the problem is the slope is about 25 -30 degrees. I think the seed won't take, but each climate is different. I don't know

Bud Cline

OK now I'm way out of my league on this subject but I'll ask this question and some of you more educated soles can help me out.

In Mike's case.....why couldn't he go ahead and use whatever 'cover' (hay or straw) was available knowing that some alien unwanted seeds would germinate....then after the lawn grass had stabilized use a herbicide (or something) that would kill the alien seed and not harm the grass seed?

How about a suitable fertilizer or fertilizing program that would discourage the alien growth?

In my area (we live in the country) if it isn't the birds crapping everywhere it's the wind blowing junk all the time. Hell, I just mow my weeds on a regular basis and don't worry about it but a nice lawn would be nice, something I've never had.

Labour of Love

You need to know what the unwanted weeds are before you consider nuking the lawn. Herbicides for grass are very target-specific - to kill the specific weeds and not kill the grass. Therefore, you need to know what you're doing.

Fertilizer for grass is also (alas) fertilizer for anything else that's growing in the grass. Yes, there is weed & feed, but again, you need to know what it is that you want to kill off.

Yes, windblown and bird-borne weed seed is a continuing problem for most of us. I do the same as you: mow it all and keep it green. Although I have a couple thousand crocus and another couple thousand other minor bulbs in my lawn for some very early color, they come and go early enough that they don't interfere with the necessary mowing.

LandscapePro

Mike,

I never...ever, ever, ever... put anything over a newly seeded lawn. There's just no sense in "just asking" for unwanted things to sprout.

If you don't have an irrigation system, get some timers from HD or Lowes and set them to come on for just a few minutes all through the day and night.

It doesn't take long just mabye 5 minutes at a time. This will keep the seed moist enough for proper germination. I have people use this method all the time for Centipede lawns and that stuff has to stay moist for 14 to 21 days.....

hope this helps

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Mike Finley

This is Colorado, everybody has an irrigation system. I see you are down in LA, we are on two different planets. You're in a totally different growing zone then me, you're hot and humid, I'm hot and dry. With straw down it gets watered 3 times a day and you're still going to be lucky not to have to spot seed it after germination. The sun is way too hot here and drys the bare ground out and kills the seeds.

It has to be covered or no seeds will get a chance to germinate. I've heard of people using newspaper, but I'm not sure who that would work since that seems it would block the sun light the seeds need?

Mike Finley

If the hay or wheat or whatever the hell you call it would be broad leaf it would be no problem, last time I did this I was hoping that was the case, since you can simply use Weed-b-gone all over the grass and it will only kill the broad leaf weeds and leave the grass alone (Provided you have let it get established first! )

This stuff certainly isn't broad leaf, only round up would kill it and spot spraying isn't an option, you still end up with a thousand dead spots for the durration of the summer season. Pulling them up by hand was the only option and that was a nightmare believe me, not going to go through that again.

LandscapePro

Mike,

Yep, we're miles apart. The growing zones have no bearing on germination however, as the requirements are the same.


The problem you describe in watering the seedbed 3 times a day is the seed is drying out in between waterings. When you remove the moisture, you halt the germination process.

Each seed carries enough "fuel" to germinate and feed the new plant until roots form and the plant can take care of itself so to speak. In halting and restarting the germination process you use up all the available "fuel". By keeping the seedbed at a consistent (or close to that) moisture level the seed can use the fuel available at a measured rate as it was intended.

Seed require 3 things in proper amounts to germinate. These 3 things are water, oxygen, and heat. While the air is thinner in Colorado than here, there's still plenty of it to go around. The heat factor is regulated by the timing of the sowing. The only limiting factor is maintaining the proper moisture levels.

Keeping the moisture level in the soil at proper levels for germination is simply a factor of managing evaporation. Covering the seed with a light layer of soil would help as long as the layer wasn't thick enough to effect the oxygen level. By properly managing the water flow to the seeded area there is no need for a layer of straw. The seed will germinate fine as long as the input of water is equal to or slightly greater that the evaporation rate.


Mike
La. Landscape contractor #2576

Mike Finley

Yes, exactly. I'm fully aware of the issue.

With all due respect I don't think you have ever been to Colorado and experienced for yourself what full sun does combined with our super low humidity. This is a high alpine to desert climate, we water our trees and shrubs in the winter here, we've had over 50 wild fires in 2006 already. In the winter after a snow fall, when the sun comes out the next day the snow evaporates off the pavement and you can see it rising as steam. I have shoveled my driveway exactly 2 times this year because it is south facing. Because of the altitude the air is much thinner and the sun's rays are much hotter, especially the UVs. If you water bare soil three times a day, once in the early morning, once at noon and once before sunset, the soil will be dry to the touch between the morning and noon waterings and between the noon and evening waterings it will break up into dry clods.

I appreciate your information, but believe me, we are in a night and day scenario when comparing climates.

LandscapePro

Actually I have been to Colorado and experienced the conditions you describe. I turned down a position as head grower for one of the largest operations in the state. Good job, but I wasn't willing to live where I was to be told on what days I could take advantage of my fireplace. Beautiful country though.....

The comparison of climate has no bearing on the issue of germination as the requirements remain the same without regard to location. The specific requirements for a particular (in this case grass)seed to germinate are a constant. Until those requirements are met, which again are proper moisture levels, proper oxygen levels, and the correct temperature, germination will not take place.

However, this same seed will germinate in Colorado, New York, Miami, or Madrid when those requirements are met.

The limiting factor in your germination issue is the 3 times a day irrigation. You're waiting to wait far too long between moisture applications for the environmental conditions in your area. Don't think in terms of "watering the lawn." You're only wanting to keep the dirt at a consistent level of "moist."

Setting the irrigation system to cycle only a few minutes per zone every hour will do just that. The exact timing of the irrigation will depend on the specific soil structure, amount of sunshine on the area, and the relative humidity at the time.


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576