LandscapePro

The following is a copy of a post I just placed on another forum. It was in response to a thread about the Low Voltage Lighting Institute of America.

What do the Landscape Contractors in this forum think?


Paul, I made sure to read and read again every post in this thread. I did the same on your "Here to help" and "Seminar" threads.

Your effort to answer questions and help out with information is a noble one. I try and do the same on several forums scattered along the web for both homeowners and professionals as well.

As a Licensed Landscape Contractor I do lighting in some of my projects. It is not however, the primary focus of my business. It's rather a "value added" service for me.

If there are those wishing to specialize in this area, I say more power to each and everyone. Learn the trade, treat customers fairly, use sound business practices and make the best living possible. However, don't try and legislate your way into the Landscape Contracting trade.

I've visited the LVLIA web site and for those perhaps not familiar, the following info was cut from there and pasted here with regard to "Objectives and Goals":

From the LVLIA web site:

"To provide a strict Accreditation Program for becoming an Accredited Landscape Lighting Technician enabling those who achieve this accreditation to be regarded as the experts in the industry.

To educate the public through publications, advertisements, trade shows, work shops, and other means as to the benefits of using a Designer/Installer that is a member of LVLIA."

What these objectives boil down to is:

We want to make sure that low voltage lighting will require an ADDITIONAL license for Landscape Contractors to continue doing the work many are already doing.

We want to make sure that a representative of OUR association gets a seat on the Horticulture Commission of YOUR state and that OUR information is used for the ADDITIONAL testing required to gain a license. The STATE can keep the money. WE just want to make sure if you don't get the extra license you no longer can do the work.

We want YOU to pay X amount of dollars to join us and we'll make it easier for you to pass the test we're going to force on the landscape contracting industry. After all WE are going to write the test and see to it YOUR state requires you to pass it.

OUR goal is to raise the profits of OUR manufacturers, distributors, and member Designers/ Installers and gain political clout. Sure prices will go up for the consumer, but who cares WE will regulate the industry. Once WE get the legislation passed, YOU will have no choice but to follow the rules WE have placed into LAW.

This is the EXACT same BS the "irrigation association" is pulling all across the country. It was passed in Louisiana "in the dead of night" with ZERO input from the Landscape Contractors it would effect. Licensed Landscape Contractors were not even notified the proposed legislation was being discussed.

If you're a Landscape Contractor reading this I urge you to contact your Legislators and your fellow Landscape Contractors to make sure this is stopped in it's tracks.

The next step will be for the "Bufford Holly Association" to push for legislation and an additional license to use burfords in our installations.

Paul, this post is in no way a personal attack. I didn't intend it that way at all. I've just seen the effects of "associations" like the one you mentioned when left unchecked.

When you get to the meeting in February, let everyone know there's one heck of a fight coming before any of this is legislated into a law that I've got to deal with. The sad part is that the stinking lobbyists are going to get rich on both sides.

With all due respect...

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

NightScenes

This was my reply, of which there has been no response.

Hello Mike,

I'm glad you responded. I need to say that I am just a designer/installer. I am a contractor out there in the field every day and I am a member of the LVLIA. My opinion is just that, an opinion. I have done some research in the industry and see things that are pretty disturbing.

You may not be aware, but many states have either passed laws or are currently trying to pass laws to require licenses. While you may be fine right now, it may not be that way for long. Currently, in Rhode Island, you must hold an electricains license to install low voltage lighting!! Do you think you could pass that exam? How about the required time in the field? How much experience do you have under a master electrician? Florida is currently trying to come up with an exam for low voltage technicians, do you think that you should have to know things about how to wire a 3 phase wye transformer to install landscape lighting?

The LVLIA is trying to work with states to come up with a test that encompasses the installation and maintenance of lighting systems under 15 volts. These are systems in compliance with UL 1838. I don't think that a landscaper who installs some lighting should have to be a licensed electricain and I don't think he should have to know about wiring a fire alam system either. See Maine, which requires a low energy electricians license. This license covers everything under fifty volts. This means telephone, fire, cable and burgular alarms. Are those things pertinent to landscape lighting?

The states don't know where to fit this industry in and they are, in some cases, (Rhode Island) going to the extreme. There is only one organization out there that is at least trying to stem the tide.

I have included a list of states and their current requirements. As more people get into this business, the states are looking closer at the industry.

Louisiana: No requirement for licensure for low voltage lighting but need home improvement contractor licensure for over $7500 contracts. $50 fee/annual renewal.

Michigan: 338.887 Sec 7M / Pub Act 217: no licensing requirements. Permit Req / Mich rule part 8 (rule 80.19): inspection required.

Maine Limited electrician- low energy. 270 hours electrical education, 4000 hours experience. License- $100 fee for 2 years. Application fee- $25.

Minnesota Power Limited Technician license.

Rhode Island treats low voltage the same as high voltage. You must acquire a license, go through the journeyman category and then apply for a full license in 4 years.

Tennesee Any contracts over $25K require a state license. Testing is done by Experior and the exam is business law plus trade skills. Renewal 2 years.

Texas Less than 24 volts- no license required.

Utah No license required for less than 50 volts.

Vermont Installs for the residential market are exempt with no licensing requirements. For public buildings, a standard electrician's license if required.

Verginia For jobs up to $7500 a class "C" license is required. From $7500 to $70,000, a class "B" license is needed. Above $70,00, you need a class "A" license. Testing is done by PSI. The license is classified as a specialty license.

Washington Requires both a residential and commercial license. Must have 4000 hours experience to take the test. Can get a "training card" to journeyman under a licensed individual.

West Verginia Need a low voltage specialty license. Cost is $25. Renewal.
every year.

Wyoming Requires a limited lighting test which can be taken every other month. They use Experior and the cost is $85. You must have 3 years/4000 hours experience to take the test. License is good for 2 years.

So, I hope I have helped to inform all. I am just trying to put information out there for all to see and then do the research themselves. I am probably a little more involved than most on this site, since I only do lighting.
__________________
Paul R Gosselin, Sr.
Night-Scapes by PRG Ventures
Member LVLIA

mdshunk

Since you asked for opinions, I think that anything connected by a wire or to the end of a wire should be done by a qualified electrician. While it's true that systems under 50 volts or under 15 volts are necessarily less hazardous than your typical electrical work, these systems are still covered by the NEC and throw it back into the electrician's ballpark. What's wrong with digging the trenches, selecting the fixtures and locations, then getting the electrician involved? You need to do this for remote planting bed receptacles and fountain/pond pumps anyhow. In any event, I do support a low voltage or limited energy license. I do fear, as has happened in other areas, that individuals with such licenses will overstep their bounds and start doing wiring on the primary side of the transformers such as indoor switching and running receptacles for transformers in new locations.

LandscapePro

Hey Paul.. Actually, I did respond to your post. However, when I hit the submit button there was a glitch and it was sent into cyberspace somewhere.

I just haven't had time to re-do it.

MD... How did it go with the sch. 80 water line? Did you miss it?

I see your point about "wire being wire". There seems to be very wide latitude on this from state to state, which is Paul's point I believe.

Any wiring done on the primary side of course would need to be done by a Licensed Electrician. However, the homeowner can plug in a transformer and run whatever he wants on the other side now without having a LE sign off on it.

The same line of thinking was applied to irrigation whereas a Licensed Plumber was required to attach the irrigation system to the water supply.

After the "Irrigation Association" got involved in the political aspect of the whole thing, all this changed. Now, at least in Louisiana, you've got to have a brand stinkin' new "Irrigation Contractor's License" to do sprinkler systems. Guess what. The law was written so that it MAY NOT SUPERCEDE ANY local ordinance. The legislation was passed in "the dead of night" without the licensed landscape contractors hearing about it even being discussed as a potential new law.

This boils down to: After I pays my money, passes the test, then pays my money again to the Plumbers Board to get a "water supply protection specialist" tag, the City of (insert name here) says Screw You....you have to pay a licensed plumber to make that connection anyway. All this after my license fee to the state has doubled.

There's no doubt in my mind that the "Lighting Association" is using this as a model and the results will be the same. That is why I'm so opposed to their efforts.

Thanks for the discussion guys....

Anyone else got thoughts?

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

NightScenes

I'm glad to see that there is, at least some discussion about this. You are right, Landscapepro, the thing that I am concerned with is the lack of consistancy. I don't believe that someone should have to be an LE to install low voltage landscape lighting, but I do believe that they should have to pass some kind of test. A uniformed exam covering all aspects of the field. Someone who installs lighting should know ohms law. How to calculate a load. This is a safety issue. I don't think they should have to know the difference between a wye and a delta 3 phase circuit. I have been an electrician for 15 years and of course, I think that all line voltage work should be done by an LE, but you don't need that much knowlage of electricity to install low voltage lighting. To me that's like saying you have to be an MD to trim your nails. It's part of the body that you are removing, so I guess you have to go to medical school to know how to do it right. Maybe you should have to be a Landscape architect to cut grass? There should be some peramiters, but lets not go over the deep end.

chriscampbell

when you talk about irrigation and how a plumber has to do all the work inside the house. i think that installing a backflow and connecting all the pipes and making the system work is more complicated than low voltage lighting. there are also several health issues at stake. i use Unique lighting and it is so simple that an 8th grade student should be able to figure out how to install it. You plug in the transformer, connect the lights, adjust the voltage and you are set. you can regulate it all you want but scrubs are still going to be putting in malbu lights. it is not like irrigation where you have to spend 25K to get a machine to lay the pipe.

LandscapePro

" regulate it all you want but scrubs are still going to be putting in malbu lights. "

Not if the legislation has teeth they won't. Well at least not once they get popped a few times.

" it is not like irrigation where you have to spend 25K to get a machine to lay the pipe. "

Actually you don't have to spend 25K to get a machine. The point is prior to the Irrigation Legislation, a licensed plumber was required to connect the system to the water supply. Since the legislation passed, a Landscape Contractor's fees to the state have doubled (if he wants to continue to do irrigation) and you STILL have to pay the plumber to make the connection to the water supply, if that is a city ordinance.

If the LVLIA wanted to work with the Licensed Landscape Contractors and have the low voltage certificate incorporated into the existing test, that would be one thing. However, I'd bet my last nickel that's not what's on their mind.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

NightScenes

I am on the legislative commitee for the LVLIA and I can tell you that what we are trying to do is, make sure that people who install "low voltage" landscape lighting don't have to have an electricians license. That's it!! In states that require a "low voltage license", there is not a single question that involves 12v landscape lighting. They have fill charts, burgular alarms and such as that but not a single thing that has to do with lighting. That means that someone who passes the test is no more qualified than Joe home owner.

As far as "i use Unique lighting and it is so simple that an 8th grade student should be able to figure out how to install it. You plug in the transformer, connect the lights, adjust the voltage and you are set." Your probably a guy who will end up burning down a house because you used a 20 volt tap and had too much current on a 12/2 wire. By the way, any tap above 15 volts is not in complience with UL1838.

Ok, my rant is over.

LandscapePro

Hey Paul.....

Rant away...There's no doubt for me you're in a very frustrating situation.

In areas where the low voltage activity falls under the umbrella of the Electricians, their lobby will fight to retain the control. I agree with you in that there is no need to understand 3 phase or have 4500 hours under a licensed electrician to install low voltage lighting. Trying to "undo" this insanity is a good thing I believe.

In the end however, once you start dealing with "legislators" (feel like I need to spit) the entire issue becomes about money and power. Which state agency gets the "new money" and the "new power" that comes with the "new license"? It becomes a matter of who gets to slice the pie.

Which lobby has the deepest pockets and is connected with the right politician to actually make it happen? Or see to it that it doesn't happen as the case may be. I'll admit that Louisiana will be the worst if history holds true, but the basic process is the same without regard to location.

It's not that I wish ill in trying to achieve some sort method to the madness you describe. My reservations come from having to live with the end result of such actions. My license fees to the state taking a 100% jump with no benefit.

lol I hope this wasn't a rant....It wasn't meant to be.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

NightScenes

I understand where you are coming from Mike. You have to start somewhere though. Every trip begins with the first step and of course the LVLIA will get nowhere without numbers but at least they are an organization that is trying to do something, at least I am.

LandscapePro

Paul,

Yea, you've got to start somewhere. Have you guys thought of "throwing in" with the Landscape Contractors Association?

Add a section to their program to get a LVL certification ? You never know, they've already got numbers and a lobby. There would be no really "new" license required, but rather an option to a fee that is already in place.

Just a thought....

I realize this may be a case of "the pot calling the kettle black" but I agree with you that XXXXXX hours under an electrician isn't the way to go either.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

rikanit

We don't do a lot of LVL but my feelings on this are the same as the irrigation licenses. We have to be a licensed irrigation contractor registered with the IEPA. Sounds impressive huh? We get a nifty little official license and my guys all get cool little cards to carry around.

Well, to become a licensed irrigation contractor here all it requires is that you pay the annual fee and register the employees who will be working in the field. No test or demonstration of skills required whatsoever. So any start-up company can become a licensed irrigation contractor whether they have experience or training or not. This will finally all change in '08 when a formal design test will be implemented.

So as far as requiring contractors to have an LVL license I say yes that's fine-as long as the contractor has to demonstrate he has the knowledge to correctly design and install an LVL project. Granted, LVL and irrigation isn't exactly rocket science but some parameters need to be set so these specialty licenses have some teeth to them and are not just worthless government red tape.

__________________
Rick Hayden
www.haydenlandscaping.com

NightScenes

The LVLIA exam consists of 7 hands-on sections and a written, 125 question section. This is a pretty comprehensive test that covers all aspects of lvl. I know that if a person passes this exam, they will be qualified to install these systems safely.
I read an article in my paper the other day that said a house caught fire do to "malfunctioning" outdoor lighting. It kinda put a lump in my throat. I know it was not a project of mine but I have to wonder, was it a bad installation? Most people don't understand that this transformer that only uses 5 amps (600 watt) Actually is capable of putting out 50 amps of power. If you don't know what you are doing with that power, you could start some fires pretty easily.

chriscampbell

my employees use an ohm meter and adjust accordingly. we are properly insured incase we "burn down a house". i didnt get to 1.4mil in sales in two years by doing subpar work.

NightScenes

I'm not talking about your work. I am talking in general. By the way, an ohm meter does not measure voltage or amperage.

LandscapePro

Rick,

Government Red Tape is right....

My point is that I find no reason to keep placing layer upon layer of additional licenses on the LC's.

One license.. Landscape Contractor, with sections of the exam covering all aspects of the profession. You pass the test and Poof.... you're licensed to handle anything that occurs outside the walls of the building. Does this mean you're to do the work of an electrician, an arborist, or a plumber? Nope, not at all.

However, it would mean that be it sprinkler systems, hardscapes & retaining walls, low voltage lighting, design and installation of plant materials, or application of fertilizers and chemicals, as a Licensed Landscape Contractor you'd be covered. Feel free to throw in anything I've left out...


Chris,

You missed the whole point with regard to the Irrigation License comparison. There is no such thing as "properly insured" when you've got a kid burned to death as a result of some idiot trying to measure voltage with an Ohm meter. It's called Negligent Homicide and 1.4 mil in sales wouldn't help.


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

rikanit

Mike,

One license with exams for the multiple disciplines would be the ideal solution.
I agree that there is no reason to keep adding additional layers of licensing when one exam could encompass the various aspects of what we do.

__________________
Rick Hayden
www.haydenlandscaping.com

NightScenes

So Mike, I guess we at least agree that 1st, someone installing low voltage landscape lighting should not need to hold an electricians license. 2nd, that if someone is going to install the lighting, they should know what they are doing. Now, you think that we should approach the Landscape Contractors Association. I will bring this up, it may be something that we can look at. I know that we are talking to different landscape and irrigation associations now, so we can know more about how to go about pleading our case to the legislatures.

LandscapePro

Paul,

Yes, we agree on the 2 points you mentioned. I don't disagree with the whole concept of what you're talking about for that matter. I've just got a bad taste in my mouth with how the Irrigation Association went about pretty much the same thing in my state.

The case in point was a local guy doing irrigation for the (D) speaker of the house crying about how he was being "undercut" in price. "Not to fear" says the speaker....

There was a small "local" bunch of guys that got together and formed an "association". This group got no traction but managed to get one of their members on the Nursery and Landscape Association board. This gave them direct access to the Horticulture Commission.

The "locals" enlisted the assistance of the National Irrigation boys to lobby. The Nursery and Landscape Association (with the new guy on board) gave their blessing to the new requirement of having a license to do irrigation work. This without contacting the Licensed Landscape Contractors with regard to what was being discussed. Wham Bam in the dead of night, a new LAW is born that doubles the fees of the LC's to the State if they want to continue to install irrigation systems.

Were I in your shoes, I'd stay far far away from the state Nurserymen's Associations. They don't have the interest of the Landscape Contractors in mind. They only want more "stroke" when it comes to the State. It's my opinion the Irrigation Association guys are in the same boat.

I think it would be a better move to contact the National Landscape Contractors Association. My position would be to avoid the same thing that the Irrigation guys did to the LC's in Louisiana. You've got the data and they have the numbers and lobbyists. The lighting portion of the exam could even be an option as far as that goes. One would just need to pony up some extra cash if they wanted to get a lighting certificate.

Rick, how does that sound from your point of view?


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

NightScenes

I will bring this up at our next meeting and also at our conference next month.

__________________
Paul R Gosselin, CLVLT 0632
NightScenes Corporation
Vice President, AOLP
www.night-scenes.com