A question for my fellow Floridians on the law - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

protechplumbing · 07-07-2009, 12:06 PM

I've got a friend of a friend that is doing cell phone tower construction that does not have a Fl general contractors license. He has a general contractor pull permits on then the GC has him listed as a sub-contractor.

To my understanding there are lots of problems with this arrangement ( IE it's illegal).

1st. I believe that it's not legal to subcontract work to a subcontractor if that subcontractor is not a licensed contractor.

2nd. He isn't actually the subcontractor as he holds the prime contract with the land owner and bids the jobs himself. He receives payment directly from the land owner. He then pays a GC a small fee for pulling the permit and listing him as a sub on it.

Somehow he does hold GL insurance and is bonded and has work comp. How would he even obtain those in Fl without a contractor’s license?

Just to be clear, he is NOT being qualified by the GC. The GC just pulls the permits for him.

Is this legal? He swears that it is, but I'm fairly sure it isn't.

apehangeralfy · 07-08-2009, 05:30 PM

Absolutely not... the GC should loose his license and along with the unlicensed guy they should both be fined heavily... What else are they not doing legal? I would bet that there GL is not being handled right and WC is probably not being paid... I would go as far as to bet that they don't bother paying tax on any of it, or the most of it.

jtpro · 07-09-2009, 04:51 PM

Well my fellow Floridians although I don't think what he is doing is illegal it most probably is shady. Almost every commercial job site I have been on the subs have work comp exempt, GL, a tax I.D.( or social) and then in turn 1099 the "subs" below them. With little or NO proof of ANYTHING!

Without being a lawyer and or knowing the letter of the law it seems to be common practice in Florida for people to get Licensed GCs to pull permits. I don't think the state cares as long as they have someone to hold accountable.

I mean truthfully (NO INSULT MEANT!) I have seen guys with GC licenses that don't know S

T about craftsmanship and or construction. I have worked with and around GCs who have NO CLUE what they're doing! They simply took a "GC" class that taught them how to take an open book test.

Go to ANY commercial jobsite from Jax to Miami (and I have been to them and in between) ask if ALL workers on sight are LEGAL citizens,INSURED,if the GC or super can read a tape measure if the Archetics plans have been right EVERY TIME? but that could be a whole nother thread!

I praise ALL you Licensed GCs that have good morals,ethics, common sense AND know your trade inside and out!

As for the above prob they're just skating through the grey areas of Fla law!

bwalley · 07-09-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtpro

Well my fellow Floridians although I don't think what he is doing is illegal it most probably is shady. Almost every commercial job site I have been on the subs have work comp exempt, GL, a tax I.D.( or social) and then in turn 1099 the "subs" below them. With little or NO proof of ANYTHING!

Without being a lawyer and or knowing the letter of the law it seems to be common practice in Florida for people to get Licensed GCs to pull permits. I don't think the state cares as long as they have someone to hold accountable.

I mean truthfully (NO INSULT MEANT!) I have seen guys with GC licenses that don't know S

T about craftsmanship and or construction. I have worked with and around GCs who have NO CLUE what they're doing! They simply took a "GC" class that taught them how to take an open book test.

Go to ANY commercial jobsite from Jax to Miami (and I have been to them and in between) ask if ALL workers on sight are LEGAL citizens,INSURED,if the GC or super can read a tape measure if the Archetics plans have been right EVERY TIME? but that could be a whole nother thread!

I praise ALL you Licensed GCs that have good morals,ethics, common sense AND know your trade inside and out!

As for the above prob they're just skating through the grey areas of Fla law!

It is against the law, both the GC, the illegal subcontractor and the client are violating the law, it is called aiding and abbeting an unlicensed contractor.

GL policies do not require proof of having a license.

W/C does not require proof of having a license.

W/C exemptions only get issued to a LLC or a corporation, individuals cannot get a W/C exemption, only principals of the corporation can.

jtpro · 07-09-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

It is against the law, both the GC, the illegal subcontractor and the client are violating the law, it is called aiding and abbeting an unlicensed contractor.

GL policies do not require proof of having a license.

W/C does not require proof of having a license.

W/C exemptions only get issued to a LLC or a corporation, individuals cannot get a W/C exemption, only principals of the corporation can.

Well Mr. bwalley you OBVIOUSLY know more than me.

I was going off of what I have seen in the past. That is good info to know though thank you!

I'm just curious though (and we obviously don't know ALL the facts involved) how does the above differ fom all these "Qualifying Agents" posts I see where people have businesses and need a GC to pull permits. or are there to many varriables per situation to give one concise answer?

Thank you in advance.

bwalley · 07-09-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtpro

Well Mr. bwalley you OBVIOUSLY know more than me.

I was going off of what I have seen in the past. That is good info to know though thank you!

I'm just curious though (and we obviously don't know ALL the facts involved) how does the above differ fom all these "Qualifying Agents" posts I see where people have businesses and need a GC to pull permits. or are there to many varriables per situation to give one concise answer?

Thank you in advance.

A Qualifier is an individual with a license who applied to the state to qualify a company, only an individual can take a test and be a license holder.

I have my licenses under my name, but once my plumbing license gets issued, I will qualify a new company with my A/C and plumbing Licenses, I will appoint an FRO, and still maintain my 3 licenses as an individual as well.

The above scenario is different than me pulling a permit for an unlicensed subcontractor.

When i hire a subcontractor for say drywall or painting, they have to be licensed, if the do not have a licenses, I can hire them as an employee, but not as a subcontractor, as employees would be working under my licenses, if I hire subcontractors without a license, I would be aiding and abetting an unlicensed contractor.

westernexplorer · 07-09-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

if I hire subcontractors without a license, I would be aiding and abetting an unlicensed contractor.

BINGO.........and it's just that simple.....

protechplumbing · 07-09-2009, 08:07 PM

You STILL waiting on that plumbing license?!?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

A Qualifier is an individual with a license who applied to the state to qualify a company, only an individual can take a test and be a license holder.

I have my licenses under my name, but once my plumbing license gets issued, I will qualify a new company with my A/C and plumbing Licenses, I will appoint an FRO, and still maintain my 3 licenses as an individual as well.

The above scenario is different than me pulling a permit for an unlicensed subcontractor.

When i hire a subcontractor for say drywall or painting, they have to be licensed, if the do not have a licenses, I can hire them as an employee, but not as a subcontractor, as employees would be working under my licenses, if I hire subcontractors without a license, I would be aiding and abetting an unlicensed contractor.

bwalley · 07-09-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protechplumbing

You STILL waiting on that plumbing license?!?!

A few things have come up that have taken precedence over dealing with the DBPR on my plumbing license.

jtpro · 07-09-2009, 10:38 PM

WOW! Thank you Mr.bwalley for that explanation! It unfortunately sheds light on the fact that on construction sites I thought some of the goings on were shady at best but now reflecting back on excactly HOW shady and down right ILLEGAL!!

It's nice to know that guys like you still do things RIGHT and by the book. Maybe someday ( with the ethical practices of men like you)contstruction will lose the negative stereotype it has.

KCLicenses · 07-15-2009, 11:12 AM

In the very first post's scenario...It is 100% ILLEGAL to be doing what they are doing. The company with the contract must be the company that is licened. A GC can only legally sub out work to licensed contractors. The state DOES care about these things and WILL pursue complaints. Unfortunately, they don't have the manpower to do stings as often as they would like -- but they will investigate any and all complaints.

The GL and workers' comp coverage they have is not likely appropriate for the work they are doing. Any reputable insurance company will not bind a policy covering construction work for an unlicensed contractor. So...if anything happens, the insurance company will likely not pay out because the policy probably does not cover construction activities. Workers' comp exemption can be obtained for non-construction companies. However, if that company is doing construction anyway, they will be in trouble. A workers' comp audit can cost tens of thousands of dollars. So...yes, they can have "coverage" but it is most likely not the kind of coverage they are supposed to have.

This whole scenario makes me sick because it's just WRONG. It's people like this who make it so tough for the good guys. And the sad thing is that they are apparently getting work when licensed, by-the-book companies are struggling to make ends meet. They need to be reported immediately.

protechplumbing · 07-22-2009, 08:15 PM

I don't know about your neck of the woods but over here there are just as many UNlicensed contractors as legit ones. In fact there might even be more unlicensed than licensed.

And of the licensed ones, only about 1/3 of those play by the rules. It's pathetic here in Fl.

bwalley · 07-22-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protechplumbing

I don't know about your neck of the woods but over here there are just as many UNlicensed contractors as legit ones. In fact there might even be more unlicensed than licensed.

And of the licensed ones, only about 1/3 of those play by the rules. It's pathetic here in Fl.

You are correct about unlicensed contractors, but Florida does arrest and charge people for unlicensed contracting, it just doesn't happen often enough.

In Tampa the city has 3 detectives that work on unlicensed contracting activities, but they go after the bigger jobs because the smaller ones aren't worth the time and a they said 70% or more of the time the homeowner knows the contractor is unlicensed, but they don't care, until the job goes south or the unlicensed contractor steals from them, I think they should start arresting the homeowners as well as the unlicensed contractors.

westernexplorer · 07-23-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

You are correct about unlicensed contractors, but Florida does arrest and charge people for unlicensed contracting, it just doesn't happen often enough.

In Tampa the city has 3 detectives that work on unlicensed contracting activities, but they go after the bigger jobs because the smaller ones aren't worth the time and a they said 70% or more of the time the homeowner knows the contractor is unlicensed, but they don't care, until the job goes south or the unlicensed contractor steals from them, I think they should start arresting the homeowners as well as the unlicensed contractors.

No state is going to arrest a homeowner for hiring an unlicensed contractor, just not going to happen. Your doing good, if you can get them to go after the unlicensed contractor, but the homeowner, never......

CF Construction · 07-23-2009, 10:24 AM

That scenario is very common down here in Miami. To my understanding, the GC that signs the permit for the other person is ultimately the one held liable for anything that happens at the job and is the one liable if work was done incorrectly which results to damages or losses.