Did You Know CA Laws On License + Unlicensed Contractors

JumboJack · 09-07-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taihe

You must have misunderstood my point. I have no problem with getting a contractors license. I will pay for it have clients whom will vouch for my professionalism and great work. However, I am in a catch 22 regarding experience and that makes it difficult. I hold a business license and have general liability as a finish carpenter for some of the contracts I receive as a sub. The point is there are unsavory characters with licenses out there when some of us are given a hard time over minor details.

You missunderstood my point.You are still contracting without a license.
If you are doing work as a finish carpenter and you contract with someone,a HO or a GC it doesn't matter,for a job over 500.00 you still need a license.

And "unsavory" licensed contractors don't last long.If they are ripping people off or doing bad work they get reported to the CSLB and their license is suspended or revoked.As far as the CSLB is concerned a contractor is guilty before proven innocent.

skyhook · 09-07-2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumboJack

.As far as the CSLB is concerned a contractor is guilty before proven innocent.

The laws a quite clear and the CSLB stands behind us 100%.
Case in point, if a HO decides to pursue a security bond, he must first obtain a court victory. Until then, the CSLB is not even remotely interested in the case.

JumboJack · 09-07-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyhook

The laws a quite clear and the CSLB stands behind us 100%.
Case in point, if a HO decides to pursue a security bond, he must first obtain a court victory. Until then, the CSLB is not even remotely interested in the case.

I agree to a point.But I know of a contractor that got pulled through some knot holes because someone was using his license fraudulently.And it took him a lot of time and $$$ to get it straightened out with the CSLB.

actforms · 10-07-2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyhook

The laws a quite clear and the CSLB stands behind us 100%.
Case in point, if a HO decides to pursue a security bond, he must first obtain a court victory. Until then, the CSLB is not even remotely interested in the case.

Anyone can put a claim against a contractors license bond... but the bonding company does not have to pay it automatically... unless a judgement exists that the judgement creditor cannot collect directly from the contractor. The bonding company is obligated to pay the judgment if a demand is placed.. then they go after the contractor (judgment debtor) for re-imbursement. But they WILL investigate any claim made against a license bond and while they will not pay most claims, they will pay some claims outright (such as claims made by equipment rental companies over unpaid rentals when a lien is placed by the rental company).

I recently got a phone call from my old bonding company about a complaint filed against my bond. The job was completed 13 years ago! The license board has jurisdiction for 4 years on patent defects (most complaints fall under this category) and 10 years on latent defects. CSLB had no interest but the bonding company did. They asked me what I wanted to do about the complaint, I said No one had even contacted me about any complaint and so I did not know what it was but even if I did, it has been WAY too long to be covered under any concievable warranty. They agreed and closed the file.

35 years as a contractor has taught me a few things about the CSLB, they are not on the contractors side (CSLB is under the Department of Consumer Affairs after all) and you cannot trust ANY advice or answers you get from them regarding contractors laws and proceedures because you can call three times with the same question and get three different answers... all of which are wrong!

517group · 10-20-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnt specialty

Oh yeah.......

I moved from California to Colorado in 92', which has no contractor licensing.......

You can imagine my "business culture-shock" once I set about setting up shop.

This place is infested & over-run with the most unscrupulous/unethical bunch one could imagine. Colorado is a "buyer beware" market, and a breeding ground for the crooks, (jacklegs). It's darn near impossible for a truly legit outfit to prosper here.

wow thats crazy. are any other states like that?

const.gurl · 12-03-2009, 11:56 AM

I was wondering if you have been to trial yet and how it worked out for you, we are actualy in a similar situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ponce

Wrong all. We are currently involved in litigation whereby a homeowner that we did work for is sueing us for the full amount of the project, $230,000, because they found an attorney who is using B&P 703.1 and a previous state case (MW Erectors). The MW Erectors case involved a contractor who started a project whereby is license was not approved until three weeks into the job. Obviously there were some problems with the job and the client sued. The courts found MW Erectors guilty of contracting without a license and order them to pay back ALL money, even though they were only without a license for three weeks out of 15.

In the case we are being sued for, we currently hold three classifications (C27, C53, C8) and contracted to remodel a homeowner's front and back yards including existing pool. Homeowner wanted a non-watertight deck built onto the back of their home. This deck was stucco with footings and columns with a tile floor and was properly engineered and permited. Let me preface that in all depositions and testimony the homeowner has stated they are NOT suing for any defects. The entire projects is perfect. We subcontracted out the deck to a B-General. What they are suing for is: We were not properly licensed to CONTRACT TO BUILD this deck. Even though a B-General built it, and it was signed off and there is nothing wrong with it. The homeowner's attorney is using the above case, MW Erectors, and B &P 703.1 to take this to the max and sue for the entire amount of the job, and they truly believe they will win.

Every expert I have spoken to has stated that this can't be.....How can they do this? If they win, this will change everything that contractors do in the state. That all contractors will be scared to death to contract any little thing they do! Most of our competitors are outraged at this. Most have asked, "If there is nothing wrong with the job, why do these people want all of their money back? That's stealing."

So, my friends this is happening, and we go to trial in around a month. It's cost me over $40,000 in attorney fees to defend myself, and we haven't even started trial, and this thing has been going on for two years. Luckily we have a retired board member from the CSLB coming to testify in our behalf that 703.1 B was NOT INTENDED for this type of suit. It was intended for completely unlicensed contractors.

So beware of what you contract to build even if you sub it out. Be careful of all the GREY areas the CSLB states under these classifications. Appreciate any comments.

Electrician · 12-23-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ponce

So beware of what you contract to build even if you sub it out. Be careful of all the GREY areas the CSLB states under these classifications. Appreciate any comments.

You have the following licenses:
C27 Landscape
C53 Swimming Pools
C8 Concrete

You entered into an agreement with the customer to perform work that requires a license you do not have.

I'm not seeing any gray area here. You are an unlicensed contractor.

You sound like an honest guy and a superb craftsman, but you made a serious mistake. You should have let the B contractor contract with the customer and pay you a finders fee.

BKFranks · 12-23-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by const.gurl

I was wondering if you have been to trial yet and how it worked out for you, we are actualy in a similar situation.

Hey, this guy is right down the street from me, though I've never seen or heard of him till now.

Hasn't made a post since May of last year. Looks like he incorporated the end of last year too. Wonder if it had to do with this.

Zinsco · 12-24-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actforms

35 years as a contractor has taught me a few things about the CSLB, they are not on the contractors side (CSLB is under the Department of Consumer Affairs after all) and you cannot trust ANY advice or answers you get from them regarding contractors laws and proceedures because you can call three times with the same question and get three different answers... all of which are wrong!

Very true. However, these days a call to the CSLB will never result in contacting a live person, only an infuriating and complex series of auto attendants.

As you correctly stated, the CSLB was not formed to serve contractors, their original charter was to protect the public, although they do very little of this anymore. They are essentially a very inefficient PR firm. They produce a couple of videos each year of their "SWIFT" team performing "Stings". This lame police effort catches fewer than 100 unlicensed contractors out of a population estimated at 1.2 million.

The CSLB is in dire need of reformation.

bwalley · 12-24-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taihe

The new guy here. I agree and disagree with this whole thread. I have been working on kitchen and bath remodels general home repair and even handyman type items for 10+ years and I don't yet have a contractors license. Many of my clients for smaller jobs say that a contractor will not even give them the time of day due to lack of large profit and yet the guys doing small jobs are still required to have a license. In order to legally perform a kitchen remodel I am required to have a "B" license and pay all of the overhead associated with it. In order to fix a fence, patch some drywall and repair a couple of broken floor tiles I need a "B" contractors license and... The point is I have many years of experience and am extremely scrupulous but it is not always easy to obtain a license. I have no criminal background, no complaints or lawsuits but am afraid I have no way to prove experience in the business because I am self employed. Additionally I am shocked that many of the contractors I have met are given a license. Just my pointless rant. By the way the above is bad advice to give your clients because you are setting them up for failure. Entering into a contract, even with an unlicensed contractor, with the intention of not paying for the services constitutes fraud!

How is following the law and not paying an unlicensed contractor fraud?

Doing work as a contractor being improperly licensed is illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taihe

You must have misunderstood my point. I have no problem with getting a contractors license. I will pay for it have clients whom will vouch for my professionalism and great work. However, I am in a catch 22 regarding experience and that makes it difficult. I hold a business license and have general liability as a finish carpenter for some of the contracts I receive as a sub. The point is there are unsavory characters with licenses out there when some of us are given a hard time over minor details.

Working without a license is not a minor detail.

FthillGuy · 12-24-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electrician

You have the following licenses:
C27 Landscape
C53 Swimming Pools
C8 Concrete

You entered into an agreement with the customer to perform work that requires a license you do not have.

I'm not seeing any gray area here. You are an unlicensed contractor.

You sound like an honest guy and a superb craftsman, but you made a serious mistake. You should have let the B contractor contract with the customer and pay you a finders fee.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but a C27 Landscaping license is valid for building decks, as long as the "roof" structure is not watertight....therefore a B classification is not required.

So what is the issue?

Zinsco · 12-24-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FthillGuy

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but a C27 Landscaping license is valid for building decks, as long as the "roof" structure is not watertight....therefore a B classification is not required.

So what is the issue?

The issue is a landscape contractor cannot build a deck regardless of weather the roof leaks or not. Here's is exactly what a landscape contractor can do according to the CSLB:

"A landscape contractor constructs, maintains, repairs, installs, or subcontracts the development of landscape systems and facilities for public and private gardens and other areas which are designed to aesthetically, architecturally, horticulturally, or functionally improve the grounds within or surrounding a structure or a tract or plot of land. In connection therewith, a landscape contractor prepares and grades plots and areas of land for the installation of any architectural, horticultural and decorative treatment or arrangement."

I don't see any mention of decks...

BKFranks · 12-24-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

The issue is a landscape contractor cannot build a deck regardless of weather the roof leaks or not. Here's is exactly what a landscape contractor can do according to the CSLB:

"A landscape contractor constructs, maintains, repairs, installs, or subcontracts the development of landscape systems and facilities for public and private gardens and other areas which are designed to aesthetically, architecturally, horticulturally, or functionally improve the grounds within or surrounding a structure or a tract or plot of land. In connection therewith, a landscape contractor prepares and grades plots and areas of land for the installation of any architectural, horticultural and decorative treatment or arrangement."

I don't see any mention of decks...

FthillGuy · 12-25-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinsco

The issue is a landscape contractor cannot build a deck regardless of weather the roof leaks or not. Here's is exactly what a landscape contractor can do according to the CSLB:

"A landscape contractor constructs, maintains, repairs, installs, or subcontracts the development of landscape systems and facilities for public and private gardens and other areas which are designed to aesthetically, architecturally, horticulturally, or functionally improve the grounds within or surrounding a structure or a tract or plot of land. In connection therewith, a landscape contractor prepares and grades plots and areas of land for the installation of any architectural, horticultural and decorative treatment or arrangement."

I don't see any mention of decks...

The following is copied and pasted directly from the CSLB website, under FAQs:
C-27 Landscaping Contractor

(CCR 832.27)
11.
Can a landscaping (C-27) contractor pull permits and perform work involving gas lines and/or electrical circuits?

This is sometimes the case when yard lighting or a pre-manufactured spa or an outdoor barbecue is part of the landscaping contract.

A C-27 contractor may obtain permits and contract for such work, provided the work is part of or incidental to an overall landscaping project.

12.
Can a landscaping contractor contract and pull permits for patio covers or outdoor decks?

A C-27 contractor may contract and pull permits for "nonwatertight" patio covers or outdoor decks.

13.
If a patio cover is attached to the house, what classification(s) can build it?

Patios with lattice type covers can be built by either a general building ("B") contractor, a carpentry contractor (C-5), or a landscaping contractor.

14.
Are there any restrictions on the size, height, or type of deck that a landscaping contractor can contract or pull permits for?

Generally, there are no restrictions on the size, height, or type of deck that a landscaping contractor can contract or pull permits for. However, certain structural work may be precluded. A review will be made on a case-by-case basis.

15.
Can a landscaping contractor build a perimeter wall?

Only if the perimeter wall is part of a total landscaping project.

16.
Can a landscaping contractor do a single trade, i.e. concrete, masonry, carpentry?
A landscaping contractor may undertake any single trade contract, provided such work is a part of:

"...landscape systems and facilities...which are designed to aesthetically, architecturally, horticulturally, or functionally improve the grounds within or surrounding a structure or a tract or plot of land..." (Board Rule 832.27)

17.
If an outdoor wall is built simply for its aesthetic value, what classification is required?

A landscaping contractor, general building contractor, or carpentry contractor would be appropriate if carpentry skills are required. A masonry wall would require either a landscaping or masonry contractor.

As you can see, question number 12 specifies that a landscape contracor CAN indeed contract for, and build decks.

So what is the issue?

RebelNY · 12-26-2009, 08:26 AM

I am a contractor in Upstate NY there is no license offered for a general contractor only seperate trades like an electrician and a plumber and that isnt always required it goes from county to county. I wish there was a license to weed out the idiots who dont know what they are doing. We do have a very extensive inspection system here though that helps protect the customers. What gets me is I pay for all my insurances by the book and everything else you are supposed to and get cut out by fly by nighters lieing to their insurance companies not paying their taxes and undercutting the jobs because they either dont have the right insurances or they arent paying their taxes or they arent paying their men. Its hard to compete against that. This past year has been the toughest ever here in Upstate NY. Hope things are better there where you are

Framer53 · 12-26-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelNY

I am a contractor in Upstate NY there is no license offered for a general contractor only seperate trades like an electrician and a plumber and that isnt always required it goes from county to county. I wish there was a license to weed out the idiots who dont know what they are doing. We do have a very extensive inspection system here though that helps protect the customers. What gets me is I pay for all my insurances by the book and everything else you are supposed to and get cut out by fly by nighters lieing to their insurance companies not paying their taxes and undercutting the jobs because they either dont have the right insurances or they arent paying their taxes or they arent paying their men. Its hard to compete against that. This past year has been the toughest ever here in Upstate NY. Hope things are better there where you are

Trust me, you really don't want licensing. If you read enough of these posts, you will realize that having a license does not weed out incompentants, only raise money for the states.

You are too young to realize, but NY did have laws in the 50's. Threw them out, because it was impossible to regulate. This is what other states have shown us!!

Regulate at the permit office! Enforce the law as written by inspectors and incompetance will disappear!!

bwalley · 12-26-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Framer53

Trust me, you really don't want licensing. If you read enough of these posts, you will realize that having a license does not weed out incompentants, only raise money for the states.

You are too young to realize, but NY did have laws in the 50's. Threw them out, because it was impossible to regulate. This is what other states have shown us!!

Regulate at the permit office! Enforce the law as written by inspectors and incompetance will disappear!!

Florida has strict licensing laws and although there should be more enforcement of unlicensed work, they do enforce the laws, I can only imagine the hack work that would be getting done if a license wasn't required.

Framer53 · 12-26-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

Florida has strict licensing laws and although there should be more enforcement of unlicensed work, they do enforce the laws, I can only imagine the hack work that would be getting done if a license wasn't required.

I am sorry for you. The only people that make out with licensing laws are existing contractors and the state that collects the revenue.

I have read too many of the posts on here and at other sites to believe that licnsing laws work.
Sorry, not biting.

Carry on

bwalley · 12-26-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Framer53

I am sorry for you. The only people that make out with licensing laws are existing contractors and the state that collects the revenue.

I have read too many of the posts on here and at other sites to believe that licnsing laws work.
Sorry, not biting.

Carry on

The state isn't getting rich off of contractors licenses, they get $209 every two years to renew my license.

If the state was just interested in making mony, they would not require the contractors to take competency tests and just allow anyone to pay the fee and become a licensed contractor.

The state requires competency testing and proof of previous experience in the field as well as criminal background checks, credit checks, financial requiremets etc.

The unlicensed contractor doesn't deal with any of this and they have nothing to lose, unless they are caught and prosecuted for contracting without a license, which in Florida is a Felony.

Framer53 · 12-26-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

The state isn't getting rich off of contractors licenses, they get $209 every two years to renew my license.

If the state was just interested in making mony, they would not require the contractors to take competency tests and just allow anyone to pay the fee and become a licensed contractor.

The state requires competency testing and proof of previous experience in the field as well as criminal background checks, credit checks, financial requiremets etc.

The unlicensed contractor doesn't deal with any of this and they have nothing to lose, unless they are caught and prosecuted for contracting without a license, which in Florida is a Felony.

I am aware of the laws in Fla. I am also aware of your personal interest in keeping those laws on the books. I will not argue with you.

I have worked in Fla and in NY. Trust me. NY is a place I would much rather do business in. At least upstate is.

I don't like gov. interference in my life. To me, that is what a lot of stated laws do.

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12-26-2009, 08:26 AM	#35
RebelNY View Profile RebelNY contractor Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (15) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity contractor Trade: General Contracting-Job Supervision-Most anything Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 15	Re: Did You Know CA Laws On License + Unlicensed Contractors I am a contractor in Upstate NY there is no license offered for a general contractor only seperate trades like an electrician and a plumber and that isnt always required it goes from county to county. I wish there was a license to weed out the idiots who dont know what they are doing. We do have a very extensive inspection system here though that helps protect the customers. What gets me is I pay for all my insurances by the book and everything else you are supposed to and get cut out by fly by nighters lieing to their insurance companies not paying their taxes and undercutting the jobs because they either dont have the right insurances or they arent paying their taxes or they arent paying their men. Its hard to compete against that. This past year has been the toughest ever here in Upstate NY. Hope things are better there where you are

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