Sequencing Question

 
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:12 PM   #1
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Sequencing Question


I've got a sequencing question. I'm a timber framer and I am going to be building a modest (26' x 32') new residence + a 12' x 16' detached workshop. It's going to be a bit of a homesteading effort in that I plan to build the detached shop first (36" crawlspace) FIRST and then build the main house (8' basement). The lot is flat and I will have (gravity) sewer laterals and a city water line. I've been trying to come up to speed on how pros like to bid jobs and I have a few questions.

I'm hoping to perhaps do the workshop excavation myself, then hire a pro (a month later) to do the main house dig and the utility trenches but I'm wondering if such a sequence is a workable scenario. I'm doing a lot of the work myself (small crew) so I'd rather not have the 2nd hole exposed until I'm ready.

I know some pros like to bid an entire job (excavation, trucking, backfill and rough) rather than do T&M (and make multiple trips with equipment). Although it might cost me a bit more to do it this way, it will help if I can pace the other aspects of the project (get the shop enclosed to dry-in for storage and possibly rough occupancy), I'm still trying to come up with a good sequencing approach. There are a lot of seasoned pros here so maybe someone has worked through a homesteading project (In-Law Apartment above garage) and can shed some light on what works and what doesn't. I have attached a site plan to show the close proximity of the structures since the logistics of the spoils piles is definitely a detail that would need to be managed.

Any thoughts on how to approach this sequencing in a way that makes sense are welcome.

Thanks in advance. I've learned a ton from the folks here.
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Last edited by jb9; 09-28-2017 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:06 PM   #2
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Re: Sequencing Question


we always put in water/sewer services first....then excavate for the basement/building foundations.

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Old 09-28-2017, 05:40 PM   #3
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Re: Sequencing Question


Thanks dayexco. I got the as-builts from the town and the pipe invert is about 8' deep. My longest lateral is the one shown going to the detached workshop so I will make sure I let the depth and grade be dictated by that run of 4" PVC. I will try and stub the services close to the envelope where the buildings will go. This is helpful. Thanks.
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:40 PM   #4
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Re: Sequencing Question


Run the electrical meter on the Shop, then you have 'Temp' power for the House...shorter wire runs. Ditto water and sewer....

Why x out the separate shop and bump out the house with a convertible "addition" you get one wall and footing "free", install a single garage door that can be framed in later... when you can afford a two car garage and shop. Add a layer of drywall for fire resistance.

Move the house closer to the set-back lines so you can have a decent sized shop later with out begging to the neighbors for a variance.

What is up with the 36" crawl space? is it local tradition? I'd look long and hard at a coredeck slab over a basement that could free up a lot of storage space: clear space for actual working on the ground floor, ditto frame the roof for a bonus storage room with a dutch "hay loft" access door for large items.

You could build a large garden shed(s)( think double ended) for use as a job shack, then sell it post completion.

The easement can't be used as part of the set back?

Is the AHU an accessory building? thus no set- back?

Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 09-28-2017 at 08:50 PM. Reason: easement ?
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:53 AM   #5
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Re: Sequencing Question


One question about putting in services first... is there a risk of damage to the 4" PVC sewer line as the remaining excavation occurs? Feel free to take a look at the site plan I attached in the initial post.
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:01 PM   #6
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Re: Sequencing Question


we put in services with 4' bucket. we would transition 5' out of the wall line from sdr 35 to sched 40. put in a cleanout at that point. cap the pvc, lay the roll of copper down flat, put about foot or so of pea rock on top.

as you're digging basement, you'll see the rock, and pea rock makes it easy to dig/find. makes it easy for plumber also to dig up copper, and roll to wherever he needs to go without a splice in the line outside the foundation wall.
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:48 AM   #7
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Re: Sequencing Question


Put your foundation first and put your services after you backfill. When you do your foundation put in sleeves for W/S through the foundation (if Sewer line 3" use 4" sleeve, same for water if you have a 1" line use 1 1/4-1 1/2" sleeve and cap them, also keep it slightly pitched). This way you can do waterproofing around the sleeves and don't have to worry about making penetrations and patching them later. All you do is slip the W/S lines into the sleeves and you are done. On the inside, you can use something like Fernco doughnut (many different types like in the example) in between the sleeve and the pipe to prevent water penetration.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:42 PM   #8
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Re: Sequencing Question


keep the sewer line low as possible, so you can install a gravity toilet and bathroom in the basement....., A minus 6 foot basement floor level gives your plumber 20" of fall for 2000"(166 feet) 1 % fall run to sanitary sewer main.

Is there a storm sewer that you can gravity drain your house's tile to? Saving possibly hundreds of dollars of electricity every year FOREVER.

You might move the underground? e-service to the other side of the garage so it isn't under/over the driveway.

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Old 10-02-2017, 03:43 PM   #9
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Re: Sequencing Question


whether basement, crawl space, or even poured slab....why aren't you coming in underneath your footings? why make any unnecessary wall penetrations?

why if coming into a basement....not utilize all the depth/grade by coming in below the footing gives you?

if you're marginal with your sewer service elevation at the curb line...after running it in, and getting elevation on it...wouldn't it make far more sense to adjust basement/footing elevation at that time instead of making an unnecessary wall penetration that will probably leak?
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:38 PM   #10
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Re: Sequencing Question


My first concern would be the sewer elevation as it has been mentioned. That would dictate bathroom in basement
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:04 PM   #11
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Re: Sequencing Question


Like others said, if you plan on finishing the basement, go under the slab, do a basement layout see where you want the bathroom and rough the plumbing in for the toilet and the sink before you pour the slab. When you do the framing, run the vent pipe so all you have to do is hook everything up when you ready to finish the basement.
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:29 PM   #12
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Re: Sequencing Question


Here you can rent a Kybo for about 2.50 a day, much cheaper then running a generator 8 hrs every working day.... Lights then sewer......

Get with a honest sparky to minimize POCO costs on hook up fees and fewer call backs, over wire the ground floor exterior for use in building the house.... if you stick with two buildings, You could flat roof the shop floor and come back in a third phase with second floor framing/final roof line.

I'd look long and hard at single envelope with a sound/fire walls between the home and the shop/mother in law unit and leave a large spot for a decent sized shop in a few years with the heat bill savings.
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:55 AM   #13
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Re: Sequencing Question


For your situation, if it were my job as the gc, I'd run the sewer line first - directly to the house at a 1% slope (wye off to the garage). Then I would use that elevation to set the bottom of my footing.
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Old 10-03-2017, 04:40 PM   #14
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Re: Sequencing Question


A 4 " vs 3 " DWV pipe size would perform better over the years, especially concerning the self venting action needed as piping get closer to a zero grade condition.

At minimum grade 1/8" a foot, special attention needs to accompany the placement to each pipe/joint in the trench to prevent change in grade from settlement, (rock for over digging, and prevention of floating Up)

This would be a good place quality rigid piping that can withstand several rotor routers and hydro cleanings over the decades and resist vegation invasions. IMHO

Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 10-03-2017 at 04:41 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:57 PM   #15
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Re: Sequencing Question


I really appreciate hearing all of these recommendations. I got my hands on the as-builts from the town which show the sewer depth at 9' (or 108"). As far as the basement goes, I think it's going to be primarily a workspace and I don't envision finishing it so I am happy with an overhead sewer with a 3" DWV that leaves the envelope and then transitions to 4" PVC.

I plan on doing the footings with Form-A-Drain and then running the drain tile to a drainage pit. My lot is completely flat so I assume I don't have the opportunity to take this drain to "daylight." (good recommendations Fourthgeneration).

I expect that the DWV from the workshop will go under the footing so I will try and minimize the undisturbed soil for this 3" or 4" PVC.

By my measurements, I think the longest 4" run to the workshop is about 130' (I will double check).

130 x 1/4 = 32.5" of elevation drop

36" is my frost depth so I think I should have some room to work with if I end up at 68.5" deep where the fernco ties in, right?

Again, I appreciate hearing how real pro's work through the sequencing when a building site is small. I'll keep adding details.
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:52 PM   #16
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Re: Sequencing Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by dayexco View Post
we always put in water/sewer services first....then excavate for the basement/building foundations.
We always do the opposite.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:41 AM   #17
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Re: Sequencing Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by rino1494 View Post
We always do the opposite.
Services go in first here.


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Old 10-07-2017, 05:08 PM   #18
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Re: Sequencing Question


If you build the AHU as party walled onto the larger house, you could share a stairwell halving the loss of usable Square footage to the staircase, one instead of two....
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:45 AM   #19
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Re: Sequencing Question


I definitely agree that sharing a wall is a good cost savings measure... For my design, I am committed to a detached structure though. I am currently leaning towards doing the utilities first, then the small structure and finally the main house. I think there will be enough room on the site for spoils but if I need to truck material off-site, I will prepare for that.

I am learning a lot from the pro's here. It helps and I appreciate it.

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