Pic's Say It...

PainterPaul

Hey guys,

Lots of rain in the last few months. I can provide more pictures details as needed.

Pic’s follow.

New full basement, 8’ deep, 48’ (N & S) x 28’ (E & W).

Sewer inlet (South end):
http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=406&cat=503

Water main inlet (North end:
http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=405&cat=503

Three times/three calls/three heavy rains, since August, the above scenario. My excavator finally came out last week to “repair”.

The sewer side was dug up. Original hydraulic cement was repacked front and rear, and new tar applied to outside.

The water main side, they chipped out from inside, and re-packed with HC.

Since the last rain, (3 days now) the sewer side repair is holding up, but the water main side is again leaking, though not as bad as seen in the above pic’s..

Important info:

1)When the sewer side was dug up, the water table was right around where the sewer pipe/water main came through the foundation ( about 3’ above basement floor).
2)My excavator said, “you have a serious problem”, referring to the water table in the hole.
3)His son mentioned, “hmmm, I wonder why the water doesn’t run down to the drainage tiles… your sump pump runs every 4 minutes + a few seconds.”
4)I have a 7’ (foot) over hang which covers the front (where the sewer/water mains enter).
5)There’s a storm sewer about 12’ from the South side of the house running E & W to a pond about 150’ behind the lot. During the initial excavation, water broke through the south end (near the storm sewer) into the hole. Not a flood but enough to have to pump.
6)I was ASSURRED from my excavator that once the foundation was poured and backfilled with clay, the “leak” would be sealed… now I have a serious problem.

I am afraid… very afraid.

(Of course I can’t explain it all in one post. Please questions and then answers???

Paul

rino1494

The water is most likely running down the pipe bedding of the storm sewer. You say that the sanitary sewer is on the same side as the storm sewer. I am sure that is imbedded in gravel. Sounds like the water is following the stone to the foundation. One possibilty is to dig up the sanitary sewer and put at least a 5' dirt block in it.

Also, by the looks of the lot, there isn't a footer drain to daylight ?? I am assuming that you running all footing drain water into a sump ??? Maybe get a bigger sump or possibly install a second sump.

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PipeGuy

Sounds to me like your picking up water that's transiting the nearby storm drain trench. You need a foundation drain to daylight to relieve the water that otherwise collects around the foundation.
I'd be interested in knowing to what degree, if any, the storm sewer outlet (at the pond) submerges during storm events.

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PainterPaul

Thanks guys.

>>> footer drain to daylight

>>> foundation drain to daylight

Please explain what this is and how it works.

I’ll report back on the pond’s inlet depth, but based on memory I seem to recall that it is completely submerged.

>>> Sounds to me like your picking up water that's transiting the nearby storm drain trench.

Yes, the water is following the stone lining. The foundation’s South 28’ wall is approximately 12’ from the storm sewer which runs the entire length of the lot. The 48’ West wall is where the sanitary sewer and water main enters (front).

rino1494

Around your footer there is a drain with gravel. A drain to daylight means that there is a pipe that extends from the footers away from the house to a spot where it can flow free onto the ground. Meaning somewhere on the lot, grade must be even or lower than the bottom of your footer. By the looks of the site from the pictures, you cannot get a drain out. Therefore, I am assuming that you have a pipe through the footer connected to a sump bucket. This is a ok solution, just as long as the sump pump can keep up with the water. One possibility is to run the footer drain so that it dumps into the pond, just as long as the outlet of the footer drain is above water level. Otherwise, the pond water will flow back towards the foundation.

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PainterPaul

Rino,

Thanks for the explanation.

I have a sump in the se corner (rear of the house). It runs approximately every 4 minutes for about 10 seconds. No problem keeping up.

Here’s a pic of the house:

http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=407&cat=503

You can see the storm grate on the street. The sewer runs back along the grass line. The pond is just behind the dirt piles. The sanitary sewer comes in the from the front between the two rightmost porch posts. The water main comes is between the two leftmost porch posts.

Again, the sanitary sewer side has not leaked yet, since it was dug up and repacked/tarred. The water main is the one that leaked this last rain. It was not dug up and repacked/tarred.

My concern is, however, that the sanitary side may leak in time if the water table remains so high.

Then again, it may not in which case the WM will need to be properly “fixed” and my problems are over.

The last few rains the rain water was running back toward the house in one spot (even with the 7’ over hang). The rain water doesn’t run back now… but it still leaked a little.

I guess my question is, could the ground have been so saturated? Might it all drain down in time to the level of the footings provided water is shed away from the house now? Time will tell.

Might another sump in the front of the house work? If so, how the hell would I install another sump now that the foundation is in, and have it work properly.

Thanks again.

PipeGuy

If that's the case there's a chance the storm sewer adjacent to your house sits full of water from time to time in which case you basically have the pond 12' away from your house and it'd be no wonder that you'd have water at your foundation. You might consider contacting a civil engineer and bouncing your concerns off him.

__________________
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rino1494

Honestly, if you have a good drain tile system, you really don't even have to cement and tar the holes. Any water around your foundation should be carried away from the footer drain.


I am assuming that it runs every 4 min under normal weather. How does it run when there is a heavy rain ? Sounds to me like the water is not getting into the sump bucket fast enough. Can you tell me what for pipe and gravel was used and how thick are the footers and gravel ?? If the water table is higher than the footer, then there should have been extra stone placed around the foundation to help drain the water.

Another sump may help decrease the water table faster. You would have to cut the concrete floor, grab a bar and shovel and dig out a hole for a bucket and pound a chisel under the footer to get underneath and past the footer. Then stick a pipe under the footer and into the bucket. It would be very hard work and there would be water coming back into the basement in which you would have to pump out to keep working. This I think would be a last resort though.

When we did my brothers house, we could only get a drain out to daylight if we dumped it into the creek, which is a big no no. If the creek would ever rise, the water would come back to the foundation. So, we put 2 pipes through the footer. We installed 2 buckets next to each other and connected each of the buckets to each pipe though the footer. We also put a pipe in the bottom of the the buckets connecting each other. There is one sump pump. When it pumps, it drains both buckets at the same time. It is a way to elminate more volume of water. We also installed a back up pump in the 2nd bucket. We set the float higher, that way if the primary pump can't keep up, the back up pump will assist.



I would talk to your excavator. Ask him how much water was there when he installed the sanitary and water lines. Usually, when we install lines that contain alot of water, we will put a "dirt block" somewhere in the line so that the water from the lines won't run back towards the foundation.

Is there any way that you can take a picture of the dentention basin ?? Maybe the the outlet of the pond is blocked somehow.

Also, is this a customer or spec house ?? If it is a spec, installing 2 buckets may draw too much attention to a water problem. Either way, you are going to have to get this problem fixed, because after the people move in, they will be calling you to come fix it later.

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PainterPaul

Rino,

Again, thanks for responding.

I have pic’s of the whole process from the initial excavation to the present. I will post a few so you can get a feel… water in the hole, footings poured, stone around footers, etc.

This is my house.

Would lowering the existing sump pump help water from the front drain faster? I could drop it down another 6” or so. I have a stone under it. It is not sitting all the way on the bottom.

ITMT, how about a dirt-block on the storm sewer trench itself, to keep the pond water from backing up through the trench? Unless the storm sewer pipe itself is not broken, wouldn’t that resolve the matter? I’ll have to talk to the City.

Merry Christmas.

jmic

Painter, Did you have PVC sleaves in the foundation wallfor the pour? Were they removed prior to the water and sewer lines going through? Or were they left in the walls? I've found over the years that there's less of a chance for a leak in wet conditions if the sleave has been removed so that the hydraulic cement can adhere to the concrete foundation.

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Joe

PainterPaul

Joe, a good point. I was wondering that too, however, no, the PVC sleave (peice of corrugated line) was not removed from the sanitary sewer side. The water main side, I believe, was drilled through... no sleave there.

PainterPaul

Hope everyone is having a great Holiday.

Here’s where the water broke through from the storm sewer trench. This was more or less a “trickle” and never a rushing through, though I did have to keep a pump running in order to keep it dry enough for the concrete guys.

http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=408&cat=503

Footings:

http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=409&cat=503

Stone:

http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=410&cat=503

Backfilling:

http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=411&cat=503
http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=412&cat=503
http://www.contractortalk.com/galler...to=413&cat=503

I spoke with another Excavator at an X-Mass party who’s been in the business for 50 years, and does residentials in and around the Chicago area. He said he digs foundations next to retention/detention ponds all the time, and that after about a year or so the clay settles and packs down. The above backfill is about 5 months.

Three extremely heavy rains since, and three leaks. Some areas around the front and side of the house, the grade was pitched inward due to settling. The first two leaks came before the 7’ overhang was sheathed/felted.

I haven’t checked the pond yet, to see whether it has an overflow grate or not, plugged up, etc.

I’ve not seen the slightest sign of dampness on the foundation walls from anywhere on the inside.

I am inclined to HOPE that between inordinately heavy rains and a higher water table due to the storm drain trench seepage, that in time the clay will pack and the water table will lower.

What do you think. Possible?