I have never seen a screw up this bad - Page 2 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

jmacd · 09-06-2009, 11:13 AM

Wellbuilt that is a step down point but if thats the case the step doesn't start before the window but after the window so your distance between the bottom of the window and top of footing is less that 18", closer to the door is like 6"

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 11:18 AM

48"??? wow thats deep. Are you sure new york code is that deep?

**Leo G** · 09-06-2009, 11:22 AM

I know CT is 42" and that is iffy sometimes. But as of late it is overkill because of the low temps in winter are really not that severe.

wellbuilthome · 09-06-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmacd

wellbuilt, code is 48" and we get well below "0" here for weeks at a time so the ground does freeze "hard" for months. I have dug thru 36" of frozen ground before in January, if this was my new home I would not want to worry about "what if" my footing moves. This is not what I would call "best practise" and it sure doesn't pass code. Remember this is not anymore of a concern of mine except that I know that this was built wrong and informed the customer.

I realize its cold up there but in the dead of winter you still don't freeze up to the house . We've dug 100s of additions with pick and shovel and we start at the house and dig out cutting the ground with jack hammers . I love my job .

jmacd · 09-06-2009, 11:32 AM

Every set of plans I have looked at state 48" of cover, even if it was 40" this home still is not enough. neolitic, mentioned he pores extra tall footings to save on form work but here the footings are formed anyways to save on concrete, concrete cost more than the forms. You just can't dig a trench perfect enough to do a trench pour and definitely not 48" deep with out benching it back some. The inspectors I have worked with don't like trench poured footings. The windows is what the problem was, the footing guys didn't consider the windows. I just did a home like this last summer and the entire back wall was stepped down at the corners and so your footing on that side of the home was 48" below basement slab. Good discussion, this is why I posted, when I looked at it I just stopped, didn't want to add to the problem.

jmacd · 09-06-2009, 11:38 AM

Are you talking about at ground level? I don't think a home can give off that much heat, in a new home. Even so, are you willing to chance a footing moving on you and the possibility of every thing above it cracking.

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 11:48 AM

I *think* you can insulate to meet code footing depth.

oldfrt · 09-06-2009, 12:16 PM

Here and I'm sure most places,
The Building Inspector has to pass waterproffing befrore backfill.
Since there is no WP to the footng there,it seems to drop off quick at the right corner of the house,maybe Neo is right.

If not,the BI dropped the ball,and should have caught it!
The bottom line will be what the BI will require,and I certainly hope it's not the same one that did the initial inspection.
He's going to get into the picture at some time,so get hip opinion.
I'd like to hear him start tripping over his words,if the fault falls on him.

The insulation idea sounds great but in those extremey low temps,I can't see it getting things up to code.

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 12:44 PM

2006 IRC R403.3 Frost Protected Shallow Foundations.

**framerman** · 09-06-2009, 12:54 PM

Now hold on a sec, I obviously would want to do things right, make it right, tell the HO that something is very wrong, but the 2 photos I see, the lower one clearly shows that there WAS grade there and I would guess that someone wanted a daylight basement after the fact and didn't give a rats ass or didn't know any better.

I'm all for doing things right, but before we go and tell this lady to sue someone, we better find out who made it a daylight. It could have very easily started as a regular backfill and someone wanted to make use of that basement.

Though the damp proofing is a mystery and doesn't look right.

oldfrt · 09-06-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mics_54

2006 IRC R403.3 Frost Protected Shallow Foundations.

Interesting,but:

Thickened slab must extend 12 inches
below finished grade.

and:

Install two #4 rebar continuous around the perimeter with a
minimum 20 inch lap and laps properly tied. (Rebar must be bent
thru the corners) Support the rebar 3 inches above ground and 3
inches in from the edges

jmacd · 09-06-2009, 01:39 PM

framerman, interesting post, from what the HO told me here are the facts according to her.

Home was built in May. Modular home, two contractors used, home builder from sill plate up and excavator from sill plate down. Excavator was recommended by home builder. HO had stamp plans from engineer and they state 48" of cover. Walk out was in the original plan. Home inspector approved work as it progressed. All that being said I think it falls on the inspector first but the excavator did the digging and masonry so he had to realize that those footing were wrong ( if neolitic is wrong) and didn't want to spend the money to fix. I understand that and can completely see that happening. The problem revealed itself when the HO's boyfriend moved all the fill away from the wall in a attempt to grade it himself with a rented skiddy. I do not want to be involved at all except to not put my work on something that would have to removed if HO has to fix the problem. She asked my for a good lawyer I gave her mine. I don't see any other solution because it come down to who pays for the fix. The HO says see wants me to do the fix but has to get the money from somewhere. I won't do anything until inspector see's it and engineer recommends fix. If this is the case she should not have to rebuild a brand new home.

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 01:44 PM

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/rcfaq.htm#footings

Q.Does the residential code require footings to frost for all buildings?
A. No. Section R403.3 entitled “Frost protected shallow foundations” provides that for buildings where the monthly mean temperature of the building is maintained at a minimum of 64ºF (18ºC), footings are not required to extend below the frost line when protected from frost by insulation in accordance with Figure R403.3(1) and Table R403.3.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. No foundation not so protected may be attached to frost-protected shallow foundations.
2. Unheated garages, porches, utility rooms and carports shall not be permitted to be attached to dwelling units with a frost-protected shallow foundation.
Materials used below grade for the purpose of insulating footings against frost shall be labeled as complying with ASTM C 578.

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 01:47 PM

Here is another article on FPSF construction

http://www.nesea.org/blog/2009/02/us...omment-page-1/

jmacd · 09-06-2009, 01:53 PM

Do you think that footing is protected in any way, that would have to be determined. That would also have to be approved by the local inspector for the town and that would be an exception to any thing I have seen for my surrounding towns. Slab on grade buildings have footing with 48" of cover. You guys are over thinking this thing, contractor made a mistake and has to fix it, happens every day to the best of us. I just hope I never make one this costly but that's why he and I have insurance.

oldfrt · 09-06-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mics_54

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/rcfaq.htm#footings

Q.Does the residential code require footings to frost for all buildings?
A. No. Section R403.3 entitled “Frost protected shallow foundations” provides that for buildings where the monthly mean temperature of the building is maintained at a minimum of 64ºF (18ºC), footings are not required to extend below the frost line when protected from frost by insulation in accordance with Figure R403.3(1) and Table R403.3.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. No foundation not so protected may be attached to frost-protected shallow foundations.
2. Unheated garages, porches, utility rooms and carports shall not be permitted to be attached to dwelling units with a frost-protected shallow foundation.
Materials used below grade for the purpose of insulating footings against frost shall be labeled as complying with ASTM C 578.

I would take this to say that the complete foundation would have to be a “Frost protected shallow foundation.”

Am I reading this right?

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 01:59 PM

Actually there's no doubt it isn't protected..we can see that...but insulation MIGHT be added to protect a shallow foundation. As far as what an inspector will allow will depend on the inspector and any local code authority.

rbsremodeling · 09-06-2009, 02:02 PM

I do not see anything wrong with the footing viewing the pics provided. I think you jumped the gun on calling out the BI and talking that sue crap.

Did you dig down beside the footer to check the depth??

How old are you?

mics_54 · 09-06-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

I would take this to say that the complete foundation would have to be a “Frost protected shallow foundation.”

Am I reading this right?

Since the issue in such cases is "liability" my guess would be ..yes I'm not sure retrofit in the shallow portions only would be acceptable. It wouldn't hurt to ask before committing to other mitigation efforts.

Who knows...he may dig down and find insulation is already there. in the step down portions below the door.

jmacd · 09-06-2009, 02:13 PM

rbsremodeling, I had my 6th birthday last week and this was all a big test to pass the time on Sunday. On the digging part why don't you come on out I will give a shovel and you can have at it

I pay well below minimum wage so that should work for ya

Mics, I am not committed to any litigation not in my scope of work to talk to lawyers.