Homeowner Will Not Pay

dustindru@earth

Hi
My name is Dustin. I am a Grading Contractor licensed and insured in Palm Beach County Florida.
I gave a written proposal to a homeowner to clear and grade her property lines so she can put in a new fence. Her existing old fence she pulled out and put streetside. I walked the property with her and gave her a written proposal ...she signed it and now I am 3/4 thru the job and she has decided that she wants the adjoining easement cleared as well or she will not pay and listed a long list of other terrible things she will do to my business.
She says the easement is her property...
I said she knew exactly where I was clearing to ...it is written in the proposal ...
"DUSTIN CURTIS proposes:
SELECTIVE CLEARING
This project consists of the selective clearing of unwanted plants and trees along the property lines of the address above, and an additional few closer to the house.
The flora to be removed consist of, but is not limited to,:
Florida Holly Trees ( Brazilian PepperTree)
Melaleuca Trees
Slash Pine Trees
Dead and Fallen Trees
The selective clearing will leave only the desired trees and plants and make way for the future installation of a new fence by the homeowner.
The AUSTRALIAN PINE will be cut down to ground grade level.
The FLORIDA HOLLY Trees will be dug out to the ground grade.
We will trim up the BLACK OLIVE Tree in the back yard and the SLASH PINE over the garage will be trimmed.
PLEASE NOTE:
Another proposal bid will be offered for the larger stumps of the PINES to be dug out or ground down at a later date when we have an accurate count of the stumps.
ALL DEBRIS WILL BE HAULED TO THE STREETSIDE WHERE IT WILL BE HAULED AWAY AND DUMPED OFF SITE.
***DUMP FEES ARE INCLUDED****
This Proposal includes the manpower, machines and hand tools to complete the job.
The work can begin the Monday following the receipt of signature and deposit check 2008.
Please fax ( 561-964-9733 ) or email ( dustindru@earthlink.net ) signed and dated Proposal for scheduling of work.
Initial payment of $ 3600. due before the start of the first work day.
Final payment of $ 2100. due on the day of work completion upon inspection of job site.

She gave me the deposit and keeps adding trees and work to the job ...in the beginning I was doing the extra work just to get it over with but now she is threatening me with no balance payment.

DO I HAVE ANY RECOURSE FINISH THE JOB AND GET MYBALANCE OWED ?

Sir Mixalot

Try one of these first.

Attached Files

Change Order[1].doc (63.0 KB, 161 views)

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genecarp

OF coarse you have options, i certainly would stop work until changes are paid for. if she refuses, i would walk and lean.

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tgeb

Welcome to the site Dustin. Sorry to hear about your predicament.

The way you worded your proposal you might have to clear that easement in order to get paid. I would have worded it differently and maybe stated that the work would be done in the area of the "existing" fence line.

She should have made you aware of the extent of the property when you walked it with her in the beginning.

This lady sounds like just another customer that wants to get something for nothing. Short of threatening to sue her for the changes I don't know what to tell you other than try and explain to her that you are/have done way more than what was proposed and that you will have to charge her for the additional work.

Sometimes when people see an opportunity to take advantage of you, they will and you gave her the impression that you would do extras for free by not discussing additional payment at the very first hint that she was wanting work done that was not in the original agreement.

You don't have to be rude or act like an ass but by simply saying, "Yes Mrs. Smith we can remove these trees, but those were not in the original proposal, so if you want us to take them out, there will be some additional charges."

I find that the customer either says, "Great just let me know how much before you proceed" or they will say "Oh that's OK just do what we originally talked about." No hard feelings either way.

I am sure some of the other guys will have some better advice for you, but that's what I've got. Good luck with it.

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cexcavation

I agree with TGEB's advice.....very good Having been through these types of jobs on a fairly regular basis, the only thing that I can add is that you make sure you track your hours, and that you have a verifiable hourly rate that the customer is aware of. This helps in the "bargaining" process as a way to explain the hours included in the original scope of work and the current total hours to encompass the new scope of work. It is best to not proceed until the original scope is checked off, but since you are past that point, this is your best bet for getting paid for honest work. This is pretty typical when doing "custom" residential projects. Firm yet positive communication with follow through will keep you with a good name and a happily paying client. If you bypass the "That will be no problem to add x, it will take approximately xhrs and cost x much more. If it takes more than x, then I will call or meet with you before I proceed further." then you are left humbling yourself and reveal your costs of doing business. Mentioning your wife and kids never hurts the getting paid department

Redneckpete

I tell my customers right off the hop that ANY changes in the original scope of work will result in the ENTIRE job being charged by the hour. They have my hourly rates before I start the job.

I also accept no payment before the job is completed. If I don't trust a customer, I will not work for them. A deposit isn't going to help me trust you, and won't help you trust me.

In ten years I've been stiffed for less then a thousand bucks, and that was due to my own stupidity it working for people that I knew were bad risks. I'm crazy enough to show up with my equipment and undo the work I've done if the customer fails to pay. I'm convinced people read me that way, and so don't take the chance.

Pete

Aframe

To late to make a difference now, but after rereading the thread and seeing "She says the easement is her property..." in tgeb's reply.

If she has granted the easement to somebody else, than it's her property.
If it's the other way around, she may or may not have the right to alter the property. Just something to watch out for.

Neighbors can get real mad when their trees disappear.

Parrothead Rob

Very true! You can get stuck in the middle too easy. The only thing I would add is next time you do a proposal put the approximate footage of the property line (or square footage where you clear an area). That would prevent the customer from trying to pull a fast one on you. Don't be afraid to put more detail in the contract you have them sign. But do make sure you aren't clearing the land that she only has the right to drive over!

Mike Finley

I'm kind of amazed that you guys in this business don't have some sort of dimensions or diagrams showing exactly the area to be worked on.

Does that mean 3 feet on her side of the property line? 30 feet? 300 feet?

A few closer to the house? Is that 2, 3, 10 trees?

Is this normal for your industry or is it more common to say "selective clearing in a area consisting of 10 feet from the customers property line"

I think it's good how you called out individual trees, you might want to go a step further and include an actual diagram and mark the actual trees and area of work and include that as part of the contract.

Bone Saw

blanket statements like this in a contracts scope, as it pertains to goods and/or services being provided, is like going to a gay pride parade and shouting "WHO WANTS TO PHUCK ME UP THE @$$"


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DavidC

My thoughts exactly. I would like to think I would have included a diagram with demensions.

On a similar track, my neighbor just had footer drains installed and they clleared his property of brush and debris. Unfortunately that clearing included pushing it about 10' onto my property along with removing my livestock fence. I can vouch for the idea that neighbors don't appreciate overstepping the line. I can't understand how a contractor would start this type of work without visiting the neighbors to make sure everyone agrees where the line is.

I hope you get this worked out to yours and the customers satisfaction but I would definately add drawings and measurements to future proposals.

Good Luck
Dave

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cexcavation

Even with diagrams, dimensions, and hours of paper work, it is sometimes very difficult to "Wrangle" in the actual scope of work when it comes down to residential projects. I tend to cater to the residential market and thus I am used to it, but it is definately different than putting in a set number of counter tops in a defined area such as the kitchen The typical homeowner statement the morning work is supposed to start is

"I was talking with "fill in the blank" and I think while I have you here, I will have you do "fill in the blank". Oh and my neighbor mentioned something about wanting some work done on his property as well, so he will probably come talk to you when he gets home. I'll be at work all day, but feel free to call me if you have any questions"

Situations like this result in the need for very precise communication and documentation. There is no way you can prepare for it beforehand, and once your equipment is on the job, you can't afford to go home and rewrite everything. This is why I typically set a budget through the form of a written estimate. I focus on the original scope of work and track my hours. Once the original agreement is met, the homeowner can then determine if they want to spend more on all the last minute extras. I keep everything "open book" which establishes trust, and ultimately gives the homeowner the control over their own pocketbook rather than putting the pressure on me when things go over budget. My dad always taught me that a project cost what it cost's and homeowners need to be made aware of that up front. If they don't understand that changes cost more money, then it is cheaper to load your equipment and go home with a smile, than to do the work and then not get paid. Excavation is a whole different animal when you get into "custom" projects.

AtlanticWBConst

On a side note: A proposal, is a proposal. A contract is a contract.

A proposal, even signed, is not recognized as a contract in some areas. In the state I am licensed in, it must be a contract, in order to support you in any legal case.

I do not know what the laws are in Florida.

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Mike Finley

You guys might want to consider having a couple of blank change orders with you on the job site. When your customer changes the job on you, just fill it out, add up the costs, adjust the schedule and have them sign it.

The neighbor can sign one too. I'd also have the neighbor write a check for the work he wants done right there and then when he signs the change/work order.

cexcavation

I actually have the homeowner sign a Labor and Materials contract that I update and have them initial at the end of each day(if I can catch them...if not I call with the current price). The biggest problem is the homeowners are typically making changes over the phone, via e-mail, etc. The only way a guy with equipment makes money is if the equipment is moving, so often times you just have to trust the character of your client. I have yet to get burned, but I strive to communicate clearly and be as fair as possible. I figure the time lost by stopping a job numerous times to track down the homeowner for an actual change order would cost more than if they decided not to pay me for the change!! I had a customer who said something that really rings true. He told me that just because someone signs a paper, it doesn't mean they are going to pay. His point was a contract doesn't change the character of the individual signing it. Most of the jobs I do are less than what it would cost me in court fees, so I do my best with the paperwork, but more importantly I try to establish a good working relationship with my customers. I plan to work with every customer for the rest of my career, so I treat every job as though it is the first in a long line for that particular customer.

Mike Finley

CEX - something to consider - I understand the issue of you have to keep your machines moving or you don't make money. You might consider taking that stance with your customers.

When I sign a contract for a job part of the signing is we go over a sheet that lists customer responsibilies and consequences. Things like we will have access between 8 and 5, how do you want to provide it? Key? Lock box? Garage door code? You gonna be here every minute? Pets safety, responsibility issues, moving things around, etc...

Basically it's putting the customer on notice that my time is money and you can't afford to keep us waiting or its going to get expensive. The verbage is there about idol time caused by them for anything and the switch to hourly charges per man for my guys to sit on their porch.

As part of that paperwork we also get contact numbers, home, work, cell, every number the wife has... etc.. and we explain to every customer how important it is that if I have a question you answer my call or we go to idol time.

You might want to get into something like that. You'd be surprised how customers react to that, it sets the tone of yeah, it's your house, but it's my project to be completed by my guys and we need every bit of your cooperation to make sure nothing stands in our way to get it done. I can't tell you the amount of times I have customers checking in with us when they are stepping out... making sure we know how to get ahold of them, or that they can be back quickly if we need them.

It's amazing how you can eliminate a lot of things that are problems for other contractors just with a few sentences and a few minutes of getting everybody on the same page, once you convey to your customers how important you are. Especially when there are monetary fees involved.

I would think you guys would have it easier getting customers on your game plan, when they see those big rigs and you give them the speach about them costing them $250 an hour for them to sit idol if they can't get ahold of you to sign a change order!

Jayrek

Yeah, try to work with her, but if you have to do what Genecarp said, walk and Lien. I had a guy not want to pay along the agreed upon framing/payment schedule and kept putting me off, I finally just slapped a lien on him and got paid three months later, I hate having to do things this way though, but you have to do what you have to do.

Ironman

Look up her survey on line, see if the easment is on her property if not youd best find the owner or at least have her get you a sighned waiver to let you clear anything on that piece of property. otherwise youll be liable for damages. Ive had neighbours pull string lines when construction starts just so every one knows where there little yard starts. you dont want to get between 2 bickering neighbours. And if she dont pay up Walk and lean
make shure you NTO the job within 45 days of comencement of work. Otherwise youll loose your lean rights.

richard123

yeah deffinatley walk and lien.

LNG24

Pete,

Around here, you'd be arrested quicker than you could get a shovel in the ground. Go figure that one out. Homeowner can stiff you and they don't get arrested, but try undoing work already done and its off in the patty wagon.