Underfloor heating questions from a newb.... - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

matuszak21 · 01-17-2007, 02:10 AM

I live and build in Oregon where I haven't had any experience with "in Floor heating systems", other than typical bathroom and tile wire applications. I visited a home this past week that had their primary (and only) heat source to be in floor heating with the PEX tubes (referred to as PEX tubing around here, I've heard other terms for it.) He used a huge fire place to heat the water that runs through the pipes, however he said the geothermal was the other option, which he doesn't have set up yet. His entire home was concrete slab (log home) and he is able to heat his entire 7000 sq ft home for $3 a month as his only heat source (minus the wood for the fire). I am building my own home and would like to get the same setup for my home with the geothermal system. Can anyone fill me in on how much it will cost for a house to install and maintain? I have a 1850 1 floor home with a 400 sq ft bonus room (finished and would need to be heated) above the garage. What company(s) do this type of work and who do I talk to? Recommendations on who is the best company to go through and which routes to avoid? I would ask the guy myself but I know the guy on a first name basis and actually don't have any of his contact information (and I don't want to just walk up to his front door if I can avoid it). Thanks in advance.

747 · 01-17-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matuszak21

I live and build in Oregon where I haven't had any experience with "in Floor heating systems", other than typical bathroom and tile wire applications. I visited a home this past week that had their primary (and only) heat source to be in floor heating with the PEX tubes (referred to as PEX tubing around here, I've heard other terms for it.) He used a huge fire place to heat the water that runs through the pipes, however he said the geothermal was the other option, which he doesn't have set up yet. His entire home was concrete slab (log home) and he is able to heat his entire 7000 sq ft home for $3 a month as his only heat source (minus the wood for the fire). I am building my own home and would like to get the same setup for my home with the geothermal system. Can anyone fill me in on how much it will cost for a house to install and maintain? I have a 1850 1 floor home with a 400 sq ft bonus room (finished and would need to be heated) above the garage. What company(s) do this type of work and who do I talk to? Recommendations on who is the best company to go through and which routes to avoid? I would ask the guy myself but I know the guy on a first name basis and actually don't have any of his contact information (and I don't want to just walk up to his front door if I can avoid it). Thanks in advance.

I have heard of pex and laying it down before a pour is a old way to do it. Usually they only do it like that now for a basement. For other floors they lay down a piece of like aluminum which has groves in it for the pex. The purpose of this is so the heat reflects up and not down.But i have never heard of heating in a wood whatever and sending it out. The water temperature has to be controlled or you could get into big trouble especially on wood floors. So i don't know what to say. Also i think the expansion tool is the way to go and not the cripping tool. But all the guys here like the cripping tool. I think the tool where you stick it in and it expands the pex long enough to make a copper transition is the way to go. Then it goes back to its original size because pex has a memory. But that tool isn't cheap. Hence probably the reason why so many guys here prefer the squeeze tool.

matuszak21 · 01-17-2007, 05:15 AM

It is heated and then sent to some box that mixes and controls it, and sends it out to each zone. The floors are all concrete, there are no wood floors. Anyone have a good source of who to contact for information on this?

QWIKWHIP · 01-17-2007, 09:00 AM

Uponor (Wirsbo) is the brand I prefer, and is also the brand that 747 was speaking of with the expansion style tool. I agree, it is a much better method than the crimping tools. As far as who to contact, you want to get in in touch with your local supplier of Uponor. They can help you with the design as well as put you in touch with a few contractors that know the product and system. They should also be able to help you with info on the Geothermal as well.

thom · 01-17-2007, 12:44 PM

My house, built in 1984, has something similar, only I use solar as a heat source and a tankless water heater as a back up heat source.

$3 a month isn't going to happen. It costs more than that, a lot more than that, to run the pump. Anyone who tells you he gets his firewood free is bull****ting you or just doesn't understand "free" It takes a lot of time and effort to cut, haul, split, and manage the fire. Without an automatic system, he's tied to his home in the winter so his house (pipes, plants, etc) doesn't freeze.

All that being said, I like my system, BUT, I live in a mild climate (Albuquerque NM). When it (on rare occasions) gets really cold out (like below zero) maintaining temperature in the room results in the floors being uncomfortably (to me, my wife likes it) warm.

My system is 6" concrete slab with 6X6 remesh on 2" styrene. The slab is isolated from earth and stemwals to minimize heat loss into the earth. The pipe loops were attached to the remesh to hold them in place prior to/during concrete pouring.

The reason for a 6" slab was to add additional thermal mass. It works. After being warmed up for a couple days, the system will make it through 2 nights and two cloudy days before need for the back-up boiler to turn on

The back-up boiler also runs the baseboard heat in the second story rooms and works just fine.

The entire system is automatic. The Solar runs through all the loops in the slab. Each room has it's own zone valve for the boiler. There are 10 separate zones.

There is 200 square feet of collector surface area.

This was an expensive system to construct/install. Probably would not be cost effective to do for someone else. Because there were no specifications available for it and no manufacturer designed and tested systems available, I had a lot of work and tweaking to do to get it working properly. The parts costs were substantially greater than a standard system, and there was an awful lot of labor involved.

TimNJ · 01-18-2007, 04:10 PM

I think I'll chime in here too. My set up is similar to thom's except substitute wood for solar. I had my design done by the now defunct "Heatway" but I ended up taking a crash book course in hydronic heating a la "Pumping Away" by Hallahan(?). Don't do anything hydronic without reading his book. I ended up tearing down my whole piping sytem on my boiler that was designed (screwed up) by Heatway. One of my plumber friends was so impressed at what I did and after reading Pumping Away, he put radiant in his 40X80 shop he built. The problem I had with Heatway design was that they skimped on tubing in their design in order to keep their pricing attractive. When they did their layout they had different spacing for the tube for different areas of the slab. Another ex-plumber I know who now is on the supply side of things is designing radiant sytems for the supply house he now works at. He told me what he does in a nut shell is 1/2-5/8 PEX spaced 6" through out the entire slab. He compensates for variations by using more loops on his manifolds and more zoning. With valving on each loop you can control the temp of that loop by controlling how slow or fast the water flows through it.
There isn't that much to it once you read up on it and the above book will tell you a lot.
I switched my radiant to a Tarm wood boiler 4 years after I moved into my house. It works just as any other boiler (aquastat controlled) except twice a day when it is cold I fill it with wood. The main boiler (propane) does 2nd floor HWBB and domestic HW through a BoilerMate.
What ever you do don't put any splices in your slab. You can get PEX in large enough rolls that you won't have to.

matuszak21 · 01-19-2007, 12:37 AM

Thanks guys for the advice so far. I checked out the Uponor system in my area and after several phone calls finally tracked down the right people. I have a couple different installers in my area, both whom I have called and plan on getting quotes for in the next couple days. I'm scared to see the price of having a system installed. I thought about trying to install the system myself, however I was told by the distributor that you must be certified by the company to intall the product, otherwise you will get no warranty, and you will pay retail price for the supplies, compared to list price....which the guy hinted to me was almost the price difference in paying to have installed. The guy also told me that I can become certified by taking a 4 hour class from their outside sales rep, whom I left a voice mail to earlier this evening and have not heard back from. I'm going to guess that these plumbers are going to charge double the price to install it then it would cost me to buy the supplies at list price and install myself. Anyone have a ballpark figure how much the system runs approximately per square foot? Also, for the guy who recommended the book, I will check it out. "Pumping away" by Callahan is the book, right? I'll have to search ebay. Thanks for the advice.

QWIKWHIP · 01-19-2007, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matuszak21

Thanks guys for the advice so far. I checked out the Uponor system in my area and after several phone calls finally tracked down the right people. I have a couple different installers in my area, both whom I have called and plan on getting quotes for in the next couple days. I'm scared to see the price of having a system installed. I thought about trying to install the system myself, however I was told by the distributor that you must be certified by the company to intall the product, otherwise you will get no warranty, and you will pay retail price for the supplies, compared to list price....which the guy hinted to me was almost the price difference in paying to have installed. The guy also told me that I can become certified by taking a 4 hour class from their outside sales rep, whom I left a voice mail to earlier this evening and have not heard back from. I'm going to guess that these plumbers are going to charge double the price to install it then it would cost me to buy the supplies at list price and install myself. Anyone have a ballpark figure how much the system runs approximately per square foot? Also, for the guy who recommended the book, I will check it out. "Pumping away" by Callahan is the book, right? I'll have to search ebay. Thanks for the advice.

It sounds like they are giving you pretty accurate info. The warranty is 5 years if your not certified and 25 if you are. And as far as the price difference between retail and trade, it should only be about 10% difference. But every supplier is different. Depending on the size of your house and the system installed, you should expect in the area of $20k for materials on a 3000 sqft home with all the bells and whistles. And now for the fun part part..... expect about another $20k for installation. These are just some very, very rough numbers, but they will give ya an idea. Radiant is not cheap, but it is the best form of heat out there. It's also on average about 30% more efficent too.

matuszak21 · 01-23-2007, 04:31 AM

Hey, I have done quite a bit of research and actually met with a vendor. I looked into being certified, but the vendor told me that being certified is not necessary to install the product. Does anyone know where or how I can get the product for list price, or for as cheap as possible?? I'd like to avoid paying full retail if possible.

QWIKWHIP · 01-23-2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matuszak21

Hey, I have done quite a bit of research and actually met with a vendor. I looked into being certified, but the vendor told me that being certified is not necessary to install the product. Does anyone know where or how I can get the product for list price, or for as cheap as possible?? I'd like to avoid paying full retail if possible.

They're right, being certified is not necessary. The only thing it offers is the knowledge (which is a good thing) and being able to offer a 25 year warranty on the tubing as opposed to just 5 years. That's pretty much it. Now if your a builder, set up a trade account with the vendor. Have them do the design, then buy the materials from them and they should have no problems selling you the materials at the trade price. You could probley find the materials available online somewere, but the problem you will run into is getting the system properly designed, and support during the install. Alot of times you can pay a small fee to the vendor and Uponor will send a factory rep out to your job to walk you thru the details of installation. And you don't want to pay "list" price either. The average trade price on Uponor (in my area at least) is between 35% and 45% off the list price.

matuszak21 · 01-23-2007, 06:57 PM

Thanks, I will contact the vendor and see what is possible. According to a program that they gave me which designs the system, tlels you all the necessary BTUS and all that good junk you need, it gives a quote at list price. The quote (not including hte heating source) is 6300 for list price, which with what you are telling me, the system would cost less than that at trade price. This seems too cheap. The vendor told me that my whole system should run me 15-20k, sometimes more. What do most people usually use for a heat source? I'm looking for something economical, easy, and somewhat small as it will be in my garage.

TimNJ · 01-23-2007, 08:18 PM

Do you have access to a supply of firewood?

QWIKWHIP · 01-23-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matuszak21

Thanks, I will contact the vendor and see what is possible. According to a program that they gave me which designs the system, tlels you all the necessary BTUS and all that good junk you need, it gives a quote at list price. The quote (not including hte heating source) is 6300 for list price, which with what you are telling me, the system would cost less than that at trade price. This seems too cheap. The vendor told me that my whole system should run me 15-20k, sometimes more. What do most people usually use for a heat source? I'm looking for something economical, easy, and somewhat small as it will be in my garage.

The $6300 is probley just the tubing, manifolds and fiitings, and transfer plates (if needed). The Uponor "ADS" program can print out whatever multiplier off the list the vendor sets up. So it may, or may not be "list" price. And as far as there ballpark price, that's about dead on what I had said previously.

As far as the heat source, there are soo many options your head will spin. If your looking for something small, high efficient, and reasonably priced, Check out these boilers. http://www.triangletube.com/Condensi...geOverview.htm I've had good luck with them. If your looking to go less expensive, a good old cast iron boiler is always a nice choice too.
And like TimNJ was hinting at, if you have fire wood, an outside wood boiler is a nice option as well.

matuszak21 · 01-23-2007, 10:56 PM

I don't really have access to firewood, so that wouldn't be the best option, however if it is by far the best option for the price, I may have to find access to firewood. Living in Oregon, finding firewood isn't usually that hard to do, I'm just located in a not so easily accessible area. The 6300 is just the supplies as you stated. How much do those "Triangle Tube" boilers usually run? Anything else I don't know about not in the ADS list and the boiler that I am forgetting about? Also, I'm thinking about doing all colored concrete floors in my house instead of carpet, tile, e.t.c. Nobody around here has a home like that other than the one I previously saw the radiant floor heating system in, which I thought was really neat. How easy is this to do, and how economical? What might be a ballpark 2200 sq ft home price difference between all concrete floors and carpet?

ARCS · 01-24-2007, 12:02 PM

I was given the same run around by the only supplier in my area about the certification from wirsbo. I had a plumber I know go and get the product for me right from them (I made sure he marked it up a little for his trouble). This could be an option for you. Also search google for "pex supply" and you will find a supplier that sells to anyone online at reasonable prices. The expander tool I believe cost me about 450 with attachments for 1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch. I just bought the hand expander not the automatic one for one job this is more than plenty and believe me, you will use it again once you see how easy plumbing goes with pex. I plumbed the entire water supply lines in my house with wirsbos aquapex, it took me one day to do everything by myself.

QWIKWHIP · 01-24-2007, 02:38 PM

The Triangle Tube boiler should be in the $2500-3000 range. As far as the ADS program, that's just the Uponor products. It doesn't include everything else you need to install the system. You have your boiler, all your boiler trim, circulators, controls, etc. Easily another $6-10k. And I wouldn't know anything about the floor finishing, so I can't help ya with that. I would have a more detailed talk with your vendor. Let them knwo your ready to buy and not just kicking tires. They should work with you, I'm suprised to here Vendors giving builders this hard of a time.