Servicing customers with pride. - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

ultimatetouch · 01-29-2008, 09:02 PM

I have a question for the HVAC guys. I (general contractor) remodeled a basement, the basement got new stud walls all the way around the perimter of the home. The homeowner highered an HVAC contractor who I recommended. The heating contractor installed baseboard radiant heaters on the permiter walls. They tied into the boiler its a hot water system. When the install was taking place I asked the hvac contractor if he was going to insulate the pipes, I was concerned about condensation. The contractor said it was ok because it would not be a constant cold water feed, which I understood because it would take water when ever it needed it leaving the pipes in the summer close to room temperature.
Long story short two months later in the winter the weather dropped to -5. I got back from vacation and had a message on my machine that the pipes burst. I chatted with the homeowner and the HVAC guy is blaming me for the problem saying I should have put the insulation bats behind them. That makes sense if he had put the pipes in the framing but he put them against the foundation taking advantage of the space behind the studd wall. He did not have to notch any framing so it was easy for him. WOuldnt you fellas have known to put insulation around the pipes or would you drop the dime on your GC. Would this be common practice for you guys to do?
I am pissed at myself for not demanding insulation be put on them. I am even more pissed that the sub once again plays the blame game. I am a problem solver not looking to pin it on anyone. Matter of fact I will patch the walls caused by the hvac guys repairs for nothing and touch up the paint. The HVAC guy is charging the homeowner top dollar to fix the prolem. I dont feel this is right and am going to talk to him. He ought to shift some of the blame upon himself. The owner did not even come out to look, he just begin billing them and blaming me. He should not have stuck the pipes on the foundation and if he thought they could not take the weather he should have insulated them as a precaution. Not to mention he install a 90% efficieny boiler and a 90% efficiency hot water heater. It was not cheap. Great client in a great neiborhood. Its all about service. No more business from me and hopefully I could salvage a great reference.

HeatPro · 01-29-2008, 09:15 PM

There are unanswered questions that could help make a determination:
Why was the temperature in the room cold enough to freeze? - Was the heat off at the time? If the heat was on there would have been different circumstances. A baseboard element heating a room would also heat the wall behind it.

What was the depth of the basement wall where the baseboard located? If the baseboard was attached below the frost line, then the baseboard wouldn't freeze if the system was providing heat at all. If the baseboard was above the frost line, then it made less sense to ever have the heat turned off to that loop, or at least to have insulated. Some poor choices were made individually and as a cooperative building effort due to lack of communication.

Seems like the real info would tell that the system was left off so the temperatures were low enough to freeze. If the installer was told there was a potential freeze due to being left off, he might have left the system drained, or installed antifreeze, or used a constant-circulation or freeze-run control.

There is the potential of freezing not only the baseboard, but all the plumbing, especially if the heat is left off.

ultimatetouch · 01-29-2008, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatPro

There are unanswered questions that could help make a determination:
Why was the temperature in the room cold enough to freeze? - Was the heat off at the time? If the heat was on there would have been different circumstances. A baseboard element heating a room would also heat the wall behind it.

What was the depth of the basement wall where the baseboard located? If the baseboard was attached below the frost line, then the baseboard wouldn't freeze if the system was providing heat at all. If the baseboard was above the frost line, then it made less sense to ever have the heat turned off to that loop, or at least to have insulated. Some poor choices were made individually and as a cooperative building effort due to lack of communication.

Seems like the real info would tell that the system was left off so the temperatures were low enough to freeze. If the installer was told there was a potential freeze due to being left off, he might have left the system drained, or installed antifreeze, or used a constant-circulation or freeze-run control.

There is the potential of freezing not only the baseboard, but all the plumbing, especially if the heat is left off.

My first thoughts were exactly what you said. I asked the home owner what he had the temperature set to, thinking maybe he left the thermostat to low. The finger pointing by the HVAC guy has got me furious and he is on a cruise right now so I cant let my hot air out.
Another thing that I think may be the problem is the fact that the thermostat is in the middle of the basement causing the heat to go on when the room gets cold, however the room may hardly ever get cold because it is well insulated and the main overhead pipes(large cast iron pipes) running to the upstairs raidiatiors are heating up the room as well.
The foundation is 4' deep and the radiators are at the floor. That puts them below the frost line. The pipes that he ran to them come from over head and run only a couple of feet below ground level making them above the frost line. His lead guy ran them along the foundation which I think was a poor move. I would think that the heat alone would keep them thawed if it was on consistently. I mean when guys run radiant heat they could be in the garage floor, of course I am not familiar with whats running in the pex. Is it oil or water?

TimelessQuality · 01-29-2008, 09:44 PM

Was it PEX that burst?

ultimatetouch · 01-29-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimelessQuality

Was it PEX that burst?

Copper and it blew holes in the sides of the pipe not the fittings. There was about six holes that got fixed.

HeatPro · 01-29-2008, 10:46 PM

I'd say to take it as a loss, insulate behind the new element, and see if it happens again. There will probably no way to ever find out the real story, which I suspect does have to do with the warmer pipes keeping the thermostat warm. Running a sensor on the element itself to turn the circulator on for that loop if it ever gets to 40F can stop the problem.

tdavis · 02-06-2008, 11:04 PM

I have been finishing basements here in Utah for about 10 years and fixing broken pipes in others almost as long. The problem is that the pipes were run on the cold side of the insulation. the insulation doing its job is keeping the warm air on the warm side and the cold air on the cold side. When the temp drops to minus 5 it is reasonable to expect the cold side of an insulated wall to reach freezing. We make every effort we can to never place plumbing in an exterior wall, basement or above grade. I believe you have 2 questions. Why was the plumber/hvac guy ok with the pipes against the foundation and why didn't you insulate above and behind them? Blown in cellulose insulation would have reduced this possibility because of the reduction of air movement. the convective loop gave you the freezing.

The frost line doesn't impact the cold air falling down behind the walls. If you dig a hole 6 feet deep and fill it with cold air, it will freeze.

sorry.