highgear

hello guys. Just finished my addition we have a total of 3200 sqft I have a burnham oil fired furnace. It has a 135k btu output. We have radiant heat throughout(9 zones). The furnace also make our hot water. I use at least 300 gallons of oil a month. Is this about right. I am in the process of installing a boilermate. I think we are using too much oil. What do you think. Any suggestions to reduce our oil consumption.

jmic

High,
Is there a seperate thermostat for each zone/room? What are they set at? How many people in your family? This would also effect hot water usage, especially if they're teens. I have about 2950 sq.ft. 3 zone Hydro-air system which basicly started using this winter so I'm not really accurate as far as what we use either, but I can say it's not as much as you. I have a Burnham 4 section cast iron boiler w/a beckett burner and a 60 gal. boiler mate. Just wife and I, but I'm thinking a 300 gal. delivery would last us closer to 5 wks.

__________________
___"Remember You Never Get A Second Chance To Make A First Impression"______________________
Joe

PIPES

The way I read this is, you have a tankless coil in your boiler for domestic hot water. If so , yes that much fuel is normal.
Now the big problem I find with the indirect fired tank installs is the installer does not change the triple aquastat. When you have the boilermate installed please tell the installer to change to a cold start aquastat this is what will make the difference in oil consumption

highgear

Jmic- I have 9 thermostats they are set at 62. In some of the rooms that are not used they are set at 52. Just me and my wife. 2 showers a day. Laundry once a week. We went from 1000sqft to 3100. I know there is going to be a big change, I did not realize this much. I got filled up today 264 gallons at 2.66 per agllon. This is the third time my oil company has let me run out. I am on a automatic refill schedule. I guess they have not got it right yet.

Pipes- Yes I have a tank less coil. Is there a better type of furnace for my situation. How does a cold start aquastat differ?. I have a side shot 2 venting my furnace I dont know if this matters.

TimNJ

How are your manifolds piped for the radiant (do you have feed/return thermometers on each zone)? How many loops on each zone? How long is the average loop? What diameter tubing? How thick is sub-slab and perimeter insulation?

highgear

tubing is 7/8.multiple loops in each zone average is 3 loops. I do not know lengths of ea loop maybe 120 -150 ft. My slab is 6" thick with 2" ridgid insulation under entire floor. I have quick trac on all upper floors. I dont have return thermometers just on the feed side

TimNJ

How hot is the water going in? A return thermometer would be nice. Something along the lines of a 20 degree delta-T should be what you shoot for. Is this the first you are using radiant or just the first with the new addition on the system?

7/8" id or od? What is the spacing on the tubing?

Your boiler should have a thermometer on it...how hot does it get, hot enough to reach high limit?

highgear

timnj- The furnace temp is 180. The water going into the system is 140. 7/8od is the tubing it is probably spaced at 8 inches. Its is installed in quick trac. The first with he new addition on the system

PIPES

Hey highgear, sorry I've been swamped with change outs (boiler and furnace replacements) and freeze ups.

First , your boiler is maintaining temps of 160 to 180 for domestic hot water 24 hours a day. Even if your house is empty and its 70 degrees outside your boiler is maintaining 160 to 180. This is a major waste of fuel.
An indirect fired water heater would help you, only if the triple aquastat is changed to one that only fires the burner when called on. Hence the name cold start, the boiler temp can fall to ambient(cold) if not called upon. Imagine your boiler only firing once every 12 hours or so to keep domestic water temp. , compared to the 1 or 2 times an hour now.

Next step is to ask your heating person about "outdoor resets" .

highgear

Pipes- thanks for the info. How is a Renai indirect heater. What about the radiant heat what would supply that.

PIPES

Hold on buddy, Ranai make tankless heater not indirect fired. As far as I know. You might be getting confused.

You presently have a boiler with a "tankless coil".

You want an indirect fired water heater . An indirect water heater works like another zone of heat off your present boiler. This is why I made a stink about the aquastat.

A tankless water heater is a seperate unit for domestic hot water, not to be used as a heatsource for radiant.

What you should be looking for is a SuperStor, a Boilermate , Vaughn top performer, or look up your brand of boiler on the web and they would have a indirect the matches your boiler( most of the time).

TimNJ

high gear, I switched my radiant to a Tarm wood fired boiler but here is one I found out with radiant. It works best if you have "hot" water on standby when the stat calls for heat. I have 1500sf in radiant and that is divided in two zones. The Tarm boiler holds 40 gallons which is one zone, and then the other zone is on a 40 gallon Boiler mate. The Boilermates are nice because you can dial in the exact temperature you want your radiant water to be. The boiler heats the water in the Boilermate not the radiant water. The average high efficiency boiler only holds maybe 8-10 gallons of water. When the circulators are on you are pushing a heck of a lot of water through all those loops and the fact that radiant runs cooler, your return water is always cool and forcing the boiler to run because it will never reach high limit. Example: Your radiant is taking in 140deg and if you have a 20deg delta T it will return to the boiler at 120deg.
With a boilermate you are only heating a very small amount of water in the "zone" for the coil in the tank. That way the boiler can reach its high limit and concentrate its full BTU output into that small coil. Result, the water in the Boilermate is getting super heated so it can also recover faster when the return water comes back in from the radiant loops. You have quite a few zones so you would need a few Boilermates.
You also want your boiler piped in a "primary"/"secondary" loop. Example: your boiler has 2" inlet/oulet. You should have a loop of 2''pipe that goes from one side of the boiler right back into the other. Off of that loop will be your feed manifold and your return manifold. That is the basic design of primary/secondary loop.
I hope this isn't too confusing.
Google for Dan Holahan(sp) books on hydronic heating. "Pumping Away" it will completely change your view on piping boilers.
My second floor is piped in two zones HW baseboard, along with a Boilermate that supplies my domestic hot water. This boiler is propane and also piped primary/secondary. I use a SlantFin 150,000 btu Victory series.
Once I repiped my system like this everything works beautiful

highgear

Thanks Tim and pipes. I have as rep from Buderus(?) coming over today to size the boiler. I really appreciate the input I will let you know what I find out.

PIPES

Buderus is a wonderful boiler I put one in my own house. I have dealt with Buderus for 12 yrs. and they are great to work with.

TimNJ

highgear, My next question to you was...Have you figured what btu load is from your radiant? Somewhere I had the numbers on how many btu are in a lf of baseboard, and also radiant, based on the size of the tubing. 7/8 tubing is pretty big, and you have a lot of it. Maybe 135,000btu boiler is near it's limit????
The Buderus rep should be able to figure it for you.

skymaster

Highgear: WWW.HEATINGHELP.COM That is Dan,s website: He is a SUPER PERSON, REAL GURU ON HEAT SOLUTIONS. I belive his phone number is on the site and YES you can actually call him and he will help ya out!!!!!!!! Trust me on this.
JackM

highgear

skymaster- Thanks for the info I posted this on heating help. You can go over there to see the responses

TimNJ

highgear, I looked at your pics and there isn't a real clear one of the feed coming out of the boiler and the return going back in. It was hard to tell but it looked like the feed came out and all your zones tee off, then the returns come back and go into the boiler.??
The manifold pipe looks too small (1" black??).
If it is what it looks like to me that is not primary/secondary loop set up.

highgear

Tim NJ- I had someone come by today and straighten things out. I will post some pics later.