No Nat Gas Avail, Electric or Propane??? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

A.D. Const · 07-15-2007, 01:11 PM

Hi I am remodeling a House in the NC, Rocky mount are. I will be installing a central air w/Furnace air handleler. I know Electric is by far the easiest to install. However, I want only the best. I have no natural gas in the home. Is it reccomended to install Propane?? I would have to run lines and tank. Is it worth on the operating cost after the unit is installed?? I have asked local installer their opinions, but received mixed feedback. I am looking for most energy efficient unit. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

A.D.

MechanicalDVR · 07-15-2007, 10:08 PM

Having propane is expensive, the maintenance is much less than oil, but it doesn't give as much heat for the buck. I would look at the cost of electric and choose that way. The upkeep on electric is much less than any fossil fuel. Also look at how many power outages the area has, Rocky Mount has a lot of ice storms that bring down power lines. I lived in the area off 264 years ago and power was out often during the winter.

A.D. Const · 07-16-2007, 12:44 PM

Thank you for your input. I will look into it. I have not lived there yet so I have to keep asking.

snapperhead · 07-17-2007, 07:06 AM

might want to look into ground source heat pumps(180F into the air handler),you would not have a condenser outside but the pipes would be underground.if your doing foundations might work out placing them..this has to be sized and spec'd by a qualified installer.if the house is tight on the insulation the heat from the pump in the winter will do the job.OUTAGES..get a gas generator tied into your panels to backup all your loads during those predicted outages..5000 Watts is 50 amps,this could handle the pump and all your typical house loads with a little conservative effort on the family part during the winter.

A.D. Const · 07-17-2007, 03:17 PM

Home was built on as slab, there is no chance for underground work. I like your input though. Any other ideas??

rayh78 · 07-17-2007, 03:58 PM

Regular heat pump would be cheaper to run and install than even natuarl gas for heat in NC. North above VA. then gas would be cheaper for heat.

Then if you want a backup add a fireplace with gas logs for propane

acefurnacefxr · 07-17-2007, 04:56 PM

Propane burns hotter then Natural gas, but it also burns dirtier too.......as long as you have your furnace maintained by a contractor who knows propane it be be a good investment.

logdoc · 08-18-2007, 10:27 PM

I agree with rayh, use a heat pump and get a propane fireplace. Ventless ones are 99.7% efficient and would be a wonderful compliment to a heat pump. Heat pumps save $$$$ when it is above 40 degrees outside, but below 40 the heat strips kick in and your savings go down the drain.

**framerman** · 08-19-2007, 07:12 AM

Propane, no way would I go with electric. Around here, you'd be paying 3 times the amount for electric.

Liquid Force · 08-19-2007, 08:39 AM

Well, you need to do some math to figure out which is the most efficient and cost effective... lots of people are saying heat pump, but a heat pump doesn't work when it get's below about 40F outside *I THINK* and then you're back to dumping amps through the heat strip.

Roughly, I think gas/propane is about 3 times more efficient than a heat strip, and a heat pump is about 5 times as efficient as a heat strip, so, I might be wrong but the way I see it, you would need to be below 40 degrees more than 50% of the time you need heating, for gas to be more efficient than a heat pump / heat strip combo.

base it on 1,000 hours

(AC/Heat pump and heat strip)
500 hours at 5 times efficiency of heat strip(heat pump) = 2,500(units of heat, just an example) + 500 hours of 1 times the efficiency of heat strip (heat strip) = 3000 units of heat per dollar

or

(AC only and Gas)
1,000 hours at 3 times the efficiency of heat strip (gas / propane) = 3,000 units of heat per dollar

or

(AC/Heat Pump and Gas)
500 hours at 5 times the efficiency of heat strip(heat pump) = 2,500 and 500 hours at 3 times the efficiency of heat strip (gas) = 1,500 for a GRAND TOTAL= 4,000 units of heat per dollar

Having both a heat pump AND a gas furnace would be the most efficient, but I seriously doubt it would be worth the cost of install and refilling of the propane, it just depends how cold your winters are? There's a lot more math to go into figuring just how many hours each winter you're under 40 degrees, how much it would cost to heat with electric during those hours verusus how much it would cost to heat with propane during those hours, and then figuring out how many years it would take you to see the same amount of savings in energy cost to cover the cost of the propane install. If it's more than 8-10 years it's probably not worth it.

EDIT: actually, I'm not even sure iif there is such a thing as a heat pump / gas furnace combo (I'm an electrician, not an HVAC guy! lol) but I don't see why there wouldn't be, other than that the cost of such a system would far outweigh energy savings you might see. Any HVAC guy care to clear this up?

MechanicalDVR · 08-19-2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquid Force

Well, you need to do some math to figure out which is the most efficient and cost effective... lots of people are saying heat pump, but a heat pump doesn't work when it get's below about 40F outside *I THINK* and then you're back to dumping amps through the heat strip.

Roughly, I think gas/propane is about 3 times more efficient than a heat strip, and a heat pump is about 5 times as efficient as a heat strip, so, I might be wrong but the way I see it, you would need to be below 40 degrees more than 50% of the time you need heating, for gas to be more efficient than a heat pump / heat strip combo.

base it on 1,000 hours

(AC/Heat pump and heat strip)
500 hours at 5 times efficiency of heat strip(heat pump) = 2,500(units of heat, just an example) + 500 hours of 1 times the efficiency of heat strip (heat strip) = 3000 units of heat per dollar

or

(AC only and Gas)
1,000 hours at 3 times the efficiency of heat strip (gas / propane) = 3,000 units of heat per dollar

or

(AC/Heat Pump and Gas)
500 hours at 5 times the efficiency of heat strip(heat pump) = 2,500 and 500 hours at 3 times the efficiency of heat strip (gas) = 1,500 for a GRAND TOTAL= 4,000 units of heat per dollar

Having both a heat pump AND a gas furnace would be the most efficient, but I seriously doubt it would be worth the cost of install and refilling of the propane, it just depends how cold your winters are? There's a lot more math to go into figuring just how many hours each winter you're under 40 degrees, how much it would cost to heat with electric during those hours verusus how much it would cost to heat with propane during those hours, and then figuring out how many years it would take you to see the same amount of savings in energy cost to cover the cost of the propane install. If it's more than 8-10 years it's probably not worth it.

EDIT: actually, I'm not even sure iif there is such a thing as a heat pump / gas furnace combo (I'm an electrician, not an HVAC guy! lol) but I don't see why there wouldn't be, other than that the cost of such a system would far outweigh energy savings you might see. Any HVAC guy care to clear this up?

Carrier has a new hybrid out but they are still too new to really say much about. In eastern NC heat pumps tend to work pretty well, and they don't pay as much per kilowatt hour as we do here in NJ. I have lived in both places and think propane is just to expensive to buy and maintain as well in that area for the primary heat source.

woodysheating · 08-22-2007, 08:54 PM

I install a hybrid system using a honeywell focuspro two stage thermostat and out door temperature sensor. The thermostat/sensor allows me to preset the temperature at which my systems switch from primary(heat pump) to secondary (propane) usually 35 to 40 degrees. the propane furnace acts as the air handler until the stat call for secondary heat really makes a nice system. Cost wise an air source heat pump is not much more expensive than standard A/C and propane furnaces are a few hundred more than a standard air handler with heat strips.