EPA Certified

rjordan392

So you both feel its not immoral to take a customers deposit of $2000.00 and then purchase an $1800.00 item and keep the differance. This is why homeowners do not trust contractors and prefer to do the work themselves. Contractors, free to charge what they want???
Well, it sounds like Contractor free agency is here. Its a shame, the policeman, firefighter, mailman and all factory workers cannot charge what they want for their services.

mdshunk

Yes, they can all charge what they want. Nobody works anywhere with a ball and chain. They can get another job where they are compensated at a rate they feel they are worthy of. They can also go into business for themselves. Nobody must accept a certain wage...

Anyhow, rjordan, this is a contractor site. You certainly have the minority view. Why did you choose to post here and haggle us? Why not blog on a site with someone who agrees with you, because you sure aren't changing anyone's mind around here, I assure you.

rjordan392

Where would we all be if everyone was a contractor. "I'll tell you" ... we would all be in the same boat, under employed. I suppose keeping the contractor honest is bad news on this forum.

mdshunk

Are you a buyer for WalMart?

HVAC Doc

I guess I can start stocking all my equipment and then the customer can pay for my insurance rates to cover that equipment in case of loss and can pay for storage space it takes up. Mark-ups are a part of business be it HVAC, plumbing, electrical, or the Mom and Pop hardware store down the street.

rjordan392

Well it's time to break some stones. I spoke to a HVAC business owner about replacing my furnace and A coil. I believe he has an EPA card, but his employees are questionable. I am going to insist that he have an employee on the job that has all the necessary qualifications and certificates. If this employee leaves the worksite leaving others to finish the job, the owner does not get paid. One contractor did this to me and it won't happen again.

And it won't hurt to file a complaint to the FTC about the business practices between wholesalers and installers. If you think I don't present a valid point, then listen to this: Some time ago, I was in a plumbing supply company and I overheard the owner say to another "we only deal with stocking distributors".

Bjd

I am sure glad that you do not live around here, and yes I do mark up!!

How in the hell do you expect us to make any money without a mark up.

You must work for a large scale corp, with 6 weeks vacation, a great 401 K and way too much health insurance.

Just how does your company pay for that?

And where do you get off asking for copies of EPA certs for the crew, that sure is a great way to start a job. Please do that to your installer before he starts the job, and see what happens to your relationship with him.

I know it would sure put a damper on mine all of my guys have there certs, however just asking to produce them would piss me off.

Do me a favor, go back under your rock.

BJD

mdshunk

Yeah, that'll work. (work to get a lein filed on you).
That would be a hoot.
I fail to see how that proves anything.

I'm not sure why any contractor in his right (or very left) mind would work for you. Are you retired from the government? Are you a college professor? On permanent disability? In my experience, you must be one of the three to have such wild opinions.

rjordan392

Bjd,
All comsumer advisories recommend that the installer be EPA certified. The business EPA card does not count. Either the owner or one of the installing crew must have an EPA card, not all of the crew. If you don't have it, you don't work.

mdshunk

Last I checked, no consumer advisory body's recommendations have the rule of law in any jurisdiction. They're just another batch of liberal business haters.

rjordan392

<I fail to see how that proves anything.>

It proves that business people think thay are a step above the rest. If they can say; " we only deal with stocking distributors " then how about my right to deal with stocking contractors if you can find one. That why I say its immoral for them to charge a markup on items that they do not have an investment in. They can make enough money on delivery charges, installations and repair.

As for those who get their backup when a customer asks to see their EPA card ,
should get out of the business. This card is insurance for the customer in case there is a problem with a warranty claim against the installation. What kind of claim would a customer have if the installer does not possess an EPA card. Just as it is the homeowners responibility to check that the HVAC company has proper insurance, you check for the card also.

mdshunk

They are, indeed. They've gone the extra mile to start and operate a business to not only provide products and services, but provide for their famillies. That makes business owners a step above in my book. What have you spent your lifetime doing (other than whining about business people making a profit)?

Okay, here's both of mine. Article 608 Universal and article 609 special mobile. Where's yours?

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HVAC Doc

[QUOTE=rjordan392
This card is insurance for the customer in case there is a problem with a warranty claim against the installation.[/QUOTE]


Actually, all an EPA license does is allow you to purchase refrigerant and put gauges on a refrigerant circuit and do repairs. That's it. It is not a sign of competence as far as ability to size equipment, do a load calculation, properly wire and set up a system or anything else. It means you passed a series of 100 question tests. Thats all. In our state, a Journeymans mechanical or Masters mechanical license carries far more weight considering guys just graduating tech school with zero field experience come out with an EPA card. Oh and one other thing, as for consumer sites recommending having an EPA card, many of them also state this:

Don't Confuse EPA Certification with State Licensing
Finally, be aware that many individuals will imply that they are licensed to work on air conditioners because they possess Environmental Protection Agency certification allowing them to purchase refrigerants such as Freon. An EPA certificate, while important, is a far cry from a state license. To obtain an EPA certificate, an individual must own and know how to use a recovery unit. The recovery unit captures the refrigerant which is released when a technician is working on an air conditioner or heat pump. This process reduces the damage caused to the ozone by refrigerants. An individual may become EPA certified and be allowed to purchase refrigerant for the purpose of servicing his own home, his place of business, or his automobiles. However, the possession of an EPA certificate does not qualify him to work for pay on others' residential or commerical cooling and heating systems.


As for the must stock equipment garbage. Again, if you would rather pay my insurance to keep these items in my shop, the cost of restocking fee from my warehouse of at least 3 different models of a/c's in 7 different tonnage configurations, 11 different styles of a-coils, and 17 different configurations of furnaces, fine by me. But I guarantee you it will cost you more than that $200 you are belly aching about!!!

mdshunk

BRAVO!! In fact, I would add that the posession of an EPA card might not even qualify a person to install the gauges, although they are technically permitted to do so with the card. Let me pass along the inside scoop on this card to others. You don't earn it. You "buy" it. Any monkey can take the little class in which they teach you the test, and then sit down and regurgitate the information on the test form. Viola... EPA card in the mail.

bergenbldr

exactly what is immoral about a 10% markup.anyone who what make such a statement has no idea of the costs efforts and hardwork that go into running contracting bussiness. hey may we should have a state system were the goverment sets the rates and prices contractors can charge. hmmm smells like communism??? yeah i know free enterprise is great thing except when it involves your contractor.

rjordan392

HVACDOC,
You might ask how your distributor manages to stock the equipment and pay all the expenses of running his business. As a stocking distributor, he adds a profit on just sales and is well deserved. You buy it at retail, not wholesale. Distributors who claim they are selling wholesale is bull.

rjordan392

<What have you spent your lifetime doing (other than whining about business people making a profit)?>

mdshunk,
I spent the last 27 years as a fire fighter and got a lot more thanks then you will see in your lifetime.

rjordan392

mdshunk,
And any monkey without an epa card or qualifications can be taught how to hookup guages to a condensor ( its called factory training; am I right or am I right?)

HVAC Doc

I am not naive as to how my distributor makes money. He marks up the units he sells me. That's a given and not rocket science. But, in no way could I buy in the mass quantities that my distributor does when they sell to 100's of other HVAC contractors, housing authorities, apartment complexes, etc. In other words, I cannot move the same quantity of product as a distributor can. But as for it not being wholesale, I couldn't buy a unit off the web for what I pay for my equipment from my distributor. I suspect if that parts house told you 1800.00 for a furnace, they gave you a retail price of the unit. I do not even pay close to 1800.00 for even a top end 90%plus 2 stage variable speed unit Lennox or Carrier.

747

I have a hot water boiler I wish it was as cheap to replace as a forced air furance. :Thumbs: