EPA Certified

rjordan392

Hello,
While shopping for a new hot air gas furnace, The clerk at a HVAC distribution center mentioned that purchasers must have an EPA card before a gas furnace can be purchased. Does this mean only the Company needs an EPA card or do the installers need one too? I assume EPA means Enviromental Protection Agency.

HVAC Doc

Means any serviceman or installer working for the company must have their EPA license to service, repair, or install any part of the refrigeration circuit.

rjordan392

Just today, a clerk told me that installers can use the companys EPA card. But that does not sit well if the installer does not have the required training and experience to get his own EPA card. Years ago, gas furnaces were like plug and run. But now these units are getting like high tech. I'll be asking the winning bidder for his EPA card.

Bjd

I have seen so many HO installs of hot air systems, and to see how they just do not read the install pages before they start.

I have seen systems that are counerflow designed, and they go and install an upflow unit.

People buy them without any epa cert for the home centers, most will be happy to sell them knowing full well that the ho will be back for more parts they dont need.

I was at HD a few weeks back and they sell oil burner parts, nozzles controls and the whole burner. Whats the chance that the nitwit buying it knows anything about the install, or how about the clown who showed him which one he needs without looking at the one installed.


The guy who is asking you for you cert number is only covering his own ass in the event you burn down your house.

BJD

rjordan392

BJD,
I am not installing it, I am just gathering information on quality and pricing.

mdshunk

I'm a little puzzled why the supply house requires the EPA cert to buy furnaces? There isn't a blessed thing on the test that would necessarily qualify a furnace installer. I can understand wanting to see the card to by the evap coil or the condensing unit, but not the furnace proper. Strange.

747

I would check the law. It doesn't seem you would need the epa license to purchase just to install. Maybe someone came down on that seller now he is incorrectly interpreting the law. Maybe someone has been inproperly installing units in that area. I'm sure that would get someone out.

mdshunk

No, you don't need that license in either case; purchasing or installing. The EPA license is JUST TO ACCESS THE SEALED SYSTEM OF A REFRIGERATION SYSTEM. It has absolutely, positively nothing to do with furnaces whatsoever. Heat pumps, a/c systems, chiller systems, refrigeration systems... yes. Furnaces and boilers... no.

747

I SEE..I have a nephew who is a Auto mechanic he is the only mechanic at his shop who has the certification necessary to mess with freon. Charging air conditioners. :Thumbs:

NickTech

it goes like this; an EPA cert is only for the purchase and handling of refrigerants, and equipment containing refrigerant for installation.
the sales clerk was either wrong, or the supply house has a policy about selling directly to home owners. contractors get pissed at them for giving "away" business.

HVAC Doc

A company has the right to refuse to anyone. I would read up on these court cases: In United States v. Colgate & Co., 250 U.S. 300, 307 the United States Supreme Court held that a company taking unilateral action can refuse its products to a dealer or individual. However, if the exclusive dealing involves something more, there may be a cause of action for an unreasonable restraint of trade. For example, an agreement among competitors to boycott certain businesses, suppliers or dealers can result in antitrust liability. Klor's Inc. v.Broadway-Hale Stores, Inc., 359 U.S. 207. By saying they will not sell to homeowners is a "unilateral" decision in which they are not basing it off of race, color, sex, or nationality. In fact, we have a company called Locke supply which has posted not only in their stores but their catalogs as well that their policy is: " All central furnaces and air conditioners will only be sold in Oklahoma through State licensed contracotrs. In any other trade area outside Oklahoma that does not require licensing, we will sell only through Professional heating and cooling contractors."

Our state requires licensing and I don't care how much cash you flash, you will not be walking out of that store with HVAC equipment without a either A. A contractors license or B. A mechanical Masters or Journeymans license in the trade.

Bjd

Take a look at F W Webbs slogan, " Whole Sale Or No Sale"

What they are saying in a way is no way will they sell to joe homeowner, either whole sale to the contractor or no sale.

I also know that any one that has a business check can and will purchase thru them, any product they so desire.

I have a supply house here that is in a chain, and they require a copy of your lic in order to purchase. They even have a sign on the door that states that no purchases can be made without one.

Not long ago a home owner install a new deck on his house, think it was on a week and it collasped with a group of kids on it.
The home owner got sued by one of the parents, so he in turn attempted to sue the lumber yard.

Whos to say the supply house that sells you a "Gas Fired" system will not be sued.

BJD

mdshunk

My basic premise is that a certified refrigerant man can possibly F up a gas furnace as good as a homeowner can. Chances are he won't, but there's nothing with respect the that certification that makes a person qualified to install gas heating equipment. If they're looking to sell equipment to qualified people, they're using the wrong measure of qualified.

MechAcc

Maybe the store had the unfortunate experience of a joe homeowner that purchased a furnace installed himself. Released refrigerant then got upset with the store because they wouldn't sell him refrigerant to fix his mistake.

So now they have the mentioned store policy.

__________________
MechAcc's Carbon Monoxide Site Links

mdshunk

Nice guess, but we're talking about gas furnaces. You did get your link in another time, though.

MechAcc

It could be that the furnace was being changed the homeowner realized that the existing evaporator was in the way removed it realeasing charge or the line twisted and released charge. And that is why the store may now require an epa license even though it is a furnace.

__________________
MechAcc's Carbon Monoxide Site Links

NickTech

It's All About Business, And Ability.
The Supply House Won't Sell To Joe Home Owner Because They Are Not The Heart Of The Business. The Qualified Contractor Is. If The Supply House Sells To Anyone Then The Contractors Would Loose Business. Plus Joe Homeowner Not Knowing What To Do, Messing With A System Will Void Warranies And Probably Cause Harmful Conditions. We Are In The Business Of Sales Service And Installations. We Are Not Only Selling You A Unit At Retail, But We Are Installing It With Expertise And Ability. The Unit Is Useless Unless It Is Installed Correctly, Safely And To Code. When A Unit Is Installed Reguardless Of The System Years Of Experience Goes Into Forethought And Anticipation. Knowing What Any Repercussions Could Be If Standards Were Not Adhered To. Decisions Are Made With Not Only Facts And Calculations, But Expierience From Jobs Of The Past. Thats What Your Getting When A Pro Does The Job.
This Is The Difference Between A Serious Contractor Who Bothered To Study And Get Certified, And A Homeowner Who Wants To Save A Buck.
If a supply house pisses off a contractor the contractor will take his $500k in annual purchases elsewhere. the EPA cert. has nothing to do with a gas furnace, but it does show that this person is somehow capable and responsible in the "mechanical arts". being that there is no other way of "carding" the customer, the supply houses uses the only one available.

rjordan392

NickTech,
<We Are In The Business Of Sales Service And Installations. We Are Not Only Selling You A Unit At Retail, But We Are Installing It With Expertise And Ability.>
I for one will take issue with any contractor who marks up the products that they install when they don't even stock the items. Any wholesale or retail store deserve a markup as that is the heart of their business and only means of income. Installing contractors should only charge a reasonable delivery fee and be in the business of Service and Installations only. This serves the customer's best interest. The contractor has no vested interest. How many contractors do you know that stock the equipment they install?

mdshunk

You can take issue with it, but this is not how it works. Not marking up material is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. A contractor is entitiled to charge whatever he wishes for material and equipment in just the same way that the consumer is entitled to hire someone else if they don't like it.

NickTech

one can take issue with it all they want, these are the facts. This is something i teach my students: "we do not run a non profit organization!!" I am im in the business of hvac, not in charity. do you have a problem when buying breakfast cereal. the supermarket buys it wholesale and...yes, they sell it retail. there is a wholesale to retail mark up, sometimes equipment is stored in the shop, sometimes its picked up and deliverer right to the job. either way the end consumer pays retail. the customer pays retail for the equipment and pays for the installation. same thing with service, parts and labor. welcome to the party!!