Cost of Geothermal Units - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

orson · 01-20-2009, 08:53 PM

Was just doing some reading on geothermal on US Department of Energy website, here's an excerpt:

Quote:

On average, a geothermal heat pump system costs about $2,500 per ton of capacity, or roughly $7,500 for a 3-ton unit (a typical residential size). ). A system using horizontal ground loops will generally cost less than a system with vertical loops. In comparison, other systems would cost about $4,000 with air conditioning.

Any geothermal installers care to comment on this?

nlgutters · 01-20-2009, 09:03 PM

My buddy does a ton of theses and they are no where near $7,500. For that you might get a well but not geothermal. The average residentail around here is more like 15-20k

Dr Heat · 01-20-2009, 10:28 PM

I have done three Geo one pond one vertical one field (horizontal ) the pond you may be able to do the geo for 7 if the pond is big enough

we ballpark 20K just for outside work drilling loops grouting and flushing header etc. Plus the cost of a standers install duct work etc.

I know I will get all kinds of grief for this but geo has a very limited market in my area and it has more to do with hugging trees than saving cash.

This shows how sharp the gov. is you cant get a furnace and air for four thousand ether

If you are considering geo look into all the tax re baits available.

silvertree · 01-20-2009, 11:16 PM

I hear from the HVAC guys around 20K or so, in English that means 25K when all the parts are hooked up. I don't know enough about it but the heating guys have said payback in 7 years in Minnesota. Don't know about that either. Depends on a lot of things.

Dr Heat · 01-20-2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvertree

I hear from the HVAC guys around 20K or so, in English that means 25K when all the parts are hooked up. I don't know enough about it but the heating guys have said payback in 7 years in Minnesota. Don't know about that either. Depends on a lot of things.

Ya pay back in 7 years I have a bridge to sell you.

My heating bill in Northern ILL with propane is 1500 a year AC about 600 Total 2100 if geo ran for free (and it does not ) and I never needed backup (which I would ) my pay back would be 10 + years. I would agree with a 20 year payback.

You are running at least one pump maybe more a compressor a fan etc.

The sales guru's are now pushing geo as an investment.
The work we have done has all been on Commercial installs Two camp buildings and a church They're concern was using green technology

The day will come and is almost here where in moderate climates Geo will come into play in Residential.

nhmaster3015 · 01-21-2009, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Heat

Ya pay back in 7 years I have a bridge to sell you.

My heating bill in Northern ILL with propane is 1500 a year AC about 600 Total 2100 if geo ran for free (and it does not ) and I never needed backup (which I would ) my pay back would be 10 + years. I would agree with a 20 year payback.

You are running at least one pump maybe more a compressor a fan etc.

The sales guru's are now pushing geo as an investment.
The work we have done has all been on Commercial installs Two camp buildings and a church They're concern was using green technology

The day will come and is almost here where in moderate climates Geo will come into play in Residential.

I lump these in with solar and tankless water heaters. Sounds good in the advertisments but in real life they neve pay for themselves. What it is a another toy for the rich.

nlgutters · 01-21-2009, 07:09 AM

They are meant for commercial and extremley large houses. That is where they shine. But when fuel was almost $5. a gal and people thought it would go up even worse, they could justify it. now that we are paying $2.o for fuel it will be a long time before they get paid back

MALCO.New.York · 01-21-2009, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Heat

I know I will get all kinds of grief for this but geo has a very limited market in my area and it has more to do with hugging trees than saving cash.

Not from ME! I am Right Up There with You on this!

"They" said that it is economical and will save Thousands of Trees and reduce My Carbuuun Fuuut Print to next-to-nothing and Promote Wildlife and Reduce Acid Rain and, and, and, and................

Who is the "They" and where do people get there "Information" from????

I am not saying that there is NO VIABLE application for this Technology, just not the application that the Average Consumer is being SOLD!

**joasis** · 01-21-2009, 07:53 AM

7 tons of geo for my new home, including the wells would be close to 25k. DIY for me with heat pumps will be around 5k. It is not rocket science to know the potential return over the life of the equipment, not to mention service problems, just is not there.

I would rather spend a grand on pex in the floor for solar heat then 20k for something I cannot even work on.

Texwing · 02-15-2009, 11:59 PM

Well, there are no blanket statements on geothermal. We have one in our home using an open loop irrigation system run from a lake in our back yard, for our 1965 ranch style house with a lot of single pane glass, looking over the same pond. So, when used on an older inefficient home with a lake behind it, thus avoiding the drilling cost of the loop, well, its a great deal with a great payback. And then there are many other applications that range from great like mine, to dumb with no payback, and everything in between. Our southern systems with crappy flex in the attic of a huge but cheaply constructed "McMansion" can generate $800 cooling bills easily in the summer, so at least pay back potentials do exist.

flashheatingand · 02-16-2009, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texwing

Well, there are no blanket statements on geothermal. We have one in our home using an open loop irrigation system run from a lake in our back yard, for our 1965 ranch style house with a lot of single pane glass, looking over the same pond. So, when used on an older inefficient home with a lake behind it, thus avoiding the drilling cost of the loop, well, its a great deal with a great payback. And then there are many other applications that range from great like mine, to dumb with no payback, and everything in between. Our southern systems with crappy flex in the attic of a huge but cheaply constructed "McMansion" can generate $800 cooling bills easily in the summer, so at least pay back potentials do exist.

$800/month? How much do you pay for a Kw/H?

Texwing · 02-16-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashheatingand

$800/month? How much do you pay for a Kw/H?

Depends on the provider, we pay 11 cents on up I believe, but my info may be old.

flashheatingand · 02-18-2009, 12:04 AM

$800.00/month, that's crazy. Do you think it's the flex duct that increases the operating expenses? Can't be the main reason.If so, why don't they just run metal duct in the living space and fir down? I don't know, but there has to be some solutions because that (800/month) seems unacceptable.

protechplumbing · 02-18-2009, 09:58 PM

It all depends on your area and how expensive power is. If your paying $0.24 per kwa then geo and solar are both really attractive.

I received quotes for about $16,000 for a 4ton vertical shaft system with new duct work. The water table is 45ft down and at about 70ft you start getting into limestone. Water Furnace was the make.

I’m still in the process of monitoring my heating and cooling costs with sub-kwa meters but it looks like an average of $70 per month with a 12 seer system. If the geo can cut the bill down to a third of that it would still take just under 30 years to pay for its self. If you factor energy inflation in that might go down to 15 years. That’s still a long time.

I pay .12 per kwa

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhmaster3015

I lump these in with solar and tankless water heaters. Sounds good in the advertisments but in real life they neve pay for themselves. What it is a another toy for the rich.

dsagan · 11-02-2009, 08:19 AM

Geo is definitely more efficient that air to air HP's and provides a level of comfort that isn't easily achieved with fossil fuel systems but it has been misrepresented by nearly everyone. The key to geo being "affordable" starts with the building envelope(as it should for any heating system) - if the house is sealed and insulated properly and adequately the unit can be down-sized which results in savings all around. I would never recommend a geo as a replacement in an existing house without looking at the building envelope, it's just not the first thing that should be done to make the house more efficient and if the unit is properly sized to accomodate ACH & R-values, it will cost way too much to justify it's installation and the saving just won't be there.

My recommendation to people who want geo has always been: make sure the house is built right, put your money in sealing and insulating first and then look at geo. If the house is properly built, appropriately sized geos are not all that more expensive than air to air, and if done right, require no back-up heat.

I take exception to the "rich toy" remark. It's a life-style choice and some people make the decision because they don't want to use fossil fuels and don't want equipment sitting outside their houses. The value for some is that the cost of electricity fluctuates less than that of oil and gas and they like the idea of knowing what their costs will be.

MALCO.New.York · 11-02-2009, 10:56 AM

I seees a tree........Ima gonna hug it!

beenthere · 11-05-2009, 06:32 AM

Like many technologies.
Geo, is still in its infancy. As far as residential is concerned( I know, its been around for about 30 years or so in the resi market).
While it provides great operating savings. Its upfront cost is still too high.

A 20 year break even, is not practical, if your looking for a ROI.
But, those people that want to be greener. Are helping to advance its technology, so that someday, it will be a viable option for more people, at a lower upfront price/cost.

ciws14 · 11-08-2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texwing

Well, there are no blanket statements on geothermal. We have one in our home using an open loop irrigation system run from a lake in our back yard, for our 1965 ranch style house with a lot of single pane glass, looking over the same pond. So, when used on an older inefficient home with a lake behind it, thus avoiding the drilling cost of the loop, well, its a great deal with a great payback. And then there are many other applications that range from great like mine, to dumb with no payback, and everything in between. Our southern systems with crappy flex in the attic of a huge but cheaply constructed "McMansion" can generate $800 cooling bills easily in the summer, so at least pay back potentials do exist.

Thank you. Yes paybacks do exist. With some unit having a COP of almost 7, you cannot say there is no payback. The most effecient SEER rating on a non variable air cooled condenser is maybe 20. Geo units run around 28 EER. No comparison. When we do a load on a home and size the unit, we size the unit so 90-95% of the heating can be done by the GEO alone and very little strip heat.

palacegeo · 11-15-2009, 06:59 PM

It is too bad that there are so many uninformed HVAC contractors out there.

There are plenty of examples of reasonable payback..... we have seen some with a 5 year payback.

Popular Mechanics just did an article about geothermal in the October Issue. This lame board won't let me post a link

Don't knock what you don't understand.

How many of you guys still drive a horse and buggy. There is no way that $40,000 truck will ever pay for it self.

beenthere · 11-15-2009, 07:09 PM

Probably for every one that has a payback.
There are 10 that don't.