Underage workers - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

1018 · 06-23-2008, 04:39 PM

Do you have anyone who has come to you asking for a summer job, and I'm not talking about some dumb a$$ who deserves nothing more than a freezer full of burgers and a deep fryer, I'm referring to the hardworking, dedicated kids (16+) who show they want to learn something. What would be the limitations you'd give them? And how far would the law extend towards what they can do?

Patrick · 06-23-2008, 04:47 PM

Since your are from MA as I am, first and foremost, NO ROOFING, I dont even think they can be on the ladder or the staging. Even the rules about ground clean up are pretty strict, you have to be able to show that they have NOTHING to do with the roof. Other than that, it would have a lot to do with the kid. But mostly clean up and hauling, stripping siding, ripping off shutters, light demo etc

JonM · 06-23-2008, 04:49 PM

This is something you should discuss with your insurance agent.

thom · 06-23-2008, 05:17 PM

I believe construction is a hazardous occupation by law. If that's the case, you cannot employ them if they are under 18. You could employ your own child though.

If you hired them to do a non-construction thing like washing windows etc, that would probably be fine.

They cannot drive on/for company business. Though they can drive to/from the job, driving is also a hazardous occupation.

Assuming the above is true and I believe it is, it would be both a violation of law and of your insurance to hire a minor to do this work. Any injury to the minor could result in you personally paying penalties for gross negligence.

neolitic · 06-23-2008, 05:23 PM

When I was a kid, we had to get a
work permit under if under 18.
You might look here:
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=elwdagen...afety&sid=Elwd
If I remember correctly we were allowed
to serve as mastodon wranglers.

1018 · 06-23-2008, 06:11 PM

I would never put my (hypothetical) child or anyone elses' in harms way. I just wanted to get some other opinions. He says he wants to learn how to frame, hes been around construction for awhile and knows the basics. At least he'll know how to read plans by the end of the summer.

Thanks for the replies, the only thing he'll be doing is sweeping.

artisanstone · 06-23-2008, 07:38 PM

I started working on jobsites at fourteen.

mdshunk · 06-23-2008, 07:41 PM

I'm in favor of child labor.

I do know that kids under 18 can't use power saws.

nap · 06-23-2008, 07:44 PM

unless you run an Amish crew, under 18 is verboten. OSHA says no, most insurance companies say no, most states departments of labor say no.

allowing a child can result in a great amount of liability. Should the kid get hurt, simply sign everything you own over to his parents and apologize.

mdshunk · 06-23-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap

unless you run an Amish crew, under 18 is verboten. OSHA says no, most insurance companies say no, most states departments of labor say no.

You are soooooo wrong about that. Prove it! There are definitely tasks that a child under 18 may not do on a construction site, and there are definitely tools that a child under 18 may not operate. You are sorely mistaken that a person under 18 may not be employed in construction, however. Way, way, way wrong.

1018 · 06-23-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artisanstone

I started working on jobsites at fourteen.

Same here, but now a days I can't find a kid who actually wants to work, much less one that enjoys it. So when I came across this one I said I'd try to do as much as I can to help him out.

nap · 06-23-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

You are soooooo wrong about that. Prove it! There are definitely tasks that a child under 18 may not do on a construction site, and there are definitely tools that a child under 18 may not operate. You are sorely mistaken that a person under 18 may not be employed in construction, however. Way, way, way wrong.

pick a state and I will attempt to prove one of us wrong.

mdshunk · 06-23-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap

pick a state and I will attempt to prove one of us wrong.

Okay, PA. I have in my hand a list right from my state with minimum ages to operate many construction site tools. Many of them as low as 14.

OCRS · 06-23-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artisanstone

I started working on jobsites at fourteen.

Same here

Chris Johnson · 06-23-2008, 08:08 PM

California here...under 18 but over 16

Parents must sign a release or acknowledgement, maximum 16 hrs per week (I'm not sure about summer time) plus common sense on what they can do and operate

nap · 06-23-2008, 08:25 PM

penn statutes

Quote:

§ 11.38. Electrical work. Employment of minors under 18 years of age at installing and removing electric light and power meters, and doing inside wiring is prohibited, except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation, and minors between the ages of 16 and 18 who are acting as assistants to trained electricians or electrical engineers over 21 years of age. This exception however, only applies to work on voltages up to and including 220 volts.

you have me on this one:

Quote:

§ 11.41a. Highways. Minors under 16 years of age are permitted to work on sections of the highways that are not open to the public for vehicular travel.

Quote:

§ 11.63. Roofing operations. Employment of minors under 18 years of age in all occupations in roofing operations is prohibited, except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation.

Quote:

§ 11.64. Wrecking and demolition. Employment of minors under 18 years of age in all occupations in wrecking and demolition is prohibited.

Quote:

§ 11.66. Excavating operations.
Employment of minors under 18 years of age in any of the following occupations involving excavating operations is prohibited except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation:
(1) Excavating, working in or backfilling trenches except for manually excavating or manually backfilling trenches that do not exceed 4 feet in depth at any point or working in trenches that do not exceed 4 feet in depth at any point.
(2) Excavating for buildings or other structures or working in such excavations, except for manually excavating to a depth not exceeding 4 feet below any ground surface adjoining the excavation, working in an excavation not exceeding such depth, or working in an excavation where the side walls are shored or sloped to the angle of repose.
(3) Working within tunnels prior to the completion of all driving and shoring operations. (4) Working within shafts prior to the completion of all sinking and shoring operations.

limited allowance so you get this one

Quote:

§ 11.77. Heavy work in the building trades.
The term "heavy work in building trades'' as used in section 5 of the act (43 P. S. § 44) includes the following:
(1) Carrying or handling of heavy lumber.
(2) Hod carrying.
(3) Concrete mixing and mortar mixing by hand.
(4) Wheeling sand, cement, lime, mortar, gravel, mixed concrete or other similar materials.
(5) Digging or removing any heavy stones or rock.
(6) Pile-driving by hand. (7) Handling or carrying any heavy material, such as pipe, sanitary and heating fixtures

.

that one is the great limiter.

Quote:

§ 11.31. Employment of minors on outside electrical wiring. Employment of minors under 18 years of age on outside electrical wiring is prohibited, except for apprentices, student learners, and graduates of an approved vocational, technical, or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation.

Quote:

§ 11.46. Woodworking machinery.
(a) Employment of minors under 18 years of age on power-driven woodworking machinery is prohibited except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation.
Employment on power-driven woodworking machinery includes the following:
(1) The occupation of operating power-driven woodworking machines, including supervising or controlling the operation of such machines, feeding material into such machines and helping the operator to feed material into such machines but not including the placing of material on a moving chain or in a hopper or slide for automatic feeding.
(2) The occupations of setting up, adjusting, repairing, oiling or cleaning power-driven woodworking machines.
(3) The operations of off-bearing from circular saws and from guillotine-action veneer clippers.
(b) The term "power-driven woodworking machines'' shall mean all fixed or portable machines or tools driven by power and used or designed for cutting, shaping, forming, surfacing, nailing, stapling, wire stitching, fastening or otherwise assembling, pressing or printing wood or veneer.
(c) The term "off-bearing'' shall mean the removal of material or refuse directly from a saw table or from the point of operation. Operations not considered as off-bearing within the intent of this section include the following:
(1) The removal of material or refuse from a circular saw or guillotine-action veneer clipper where the material or refuse has been conveyed away from the saw table or point of operation by a gravity chute or by some mechanical means such as a moving belt or expulsion roller.
(2) The following operations when they do not involve the removal of material or refuse
directly from a saw table or from a point of operation:
(i) The carrying, moving or transporting of materials from one machine to another or from one part of a plant to another.
(ii) The piling, stacking or arranging of materials for feeding into a machine by another person. (iii) The sorting, tying, bundling or loading of materials.

this is not a complete list.

I'll give it to you but the limitations are so great that what can be performed by somebody under 18 is so limited it is hardly worth the effort. I will still stand by the insurance situation and the liability situation. A minor cannot waive their rights or enter into contracts in most circumstances so a injury to a minor can still be more than you want to take on.

neolitic · 06-23-2008, 08:29 PM

According to the Indiana Department of Labor:
"Child labor laws prohibit workers aged 14, 15 from working in construction, except when performing office work away from the construction site.
Other laws that apply to all workers under age 18 prohibit several tasks associated with construction, for instance occupations in excavation, roofing,
wrecking, demolition and ship breaking operations. For a complete list of
prohibited occupations please contact the U.S. Department of Labor."

For some reason I cannot copy
and paste the document here.

nap · 06-23-2008, 08:29 PM

california

<B>

Quote:

Minors under 18 MAY NOT be employed or permitted to work in the following occupations declared hazardous in federal regulation and adopted by inclusion by the state of California [LC 1294.1; 29 CFR 570 Subpart E]:

• Occupations in or about plants or establishments manufacturing or storing explosives or articles containing explosive components, including, for example, small-arms ammunition [29 CFR 570.51 (H.O. 1)];
• Occupations of motor vehicle driver and outside helper [29 CFR 570.52 (H.O. 2)] (See Chapter 7 of this digest.);
• Coal mine occupations [29 CFR 570.53 (H.O. 3)];
• Occupations in connection with mining other than coal mining [29 CFR 570.60 (H.O. 9)];
• Logging, sawmill, lath mill, shingle mill, or cooperage mill occupations [29 CFR 570.54 (H.O. 4)];
• Occupations involved in the operation of power-driven woodworking machines [29 CFR 570.55 (H.O. 5)];
• Occupations involved in the operations of circular saws, band saws, and guillotine shears [29 CFR 570.65 (H.O. 14)];
• Occupations involving the operation of power-driven hoisting apparatuses, including, for example, operating or assisting to operate certain elevators, cranes, derricks, hoists, riggers, or high-lift trucks [29 CFR 570.58 (H.O. 7)];
• Occupations involved in the operations of power-driven metal forming, punching, and shearing machines [29 CFR 570.59 (H.O. 8)];
• Occupations in the operation of power-driven meat-processing machines and occupations involving slaughtering, meat packing or processing or rendering [29 CFR 570.61 (H.O. 10)];
• Occupations involved in the operation of bakery machines [29 CFR 570.52 (H.O. 11)];
• Occupations involved in the operation of paper-products machines [29 CFR 570.62 (H.O. 12)];
• Occupations involved in the manufacture of brick, tile, and kindred products [29 CFR 570.64 (H.O. 13)];
• Occupations involved in wrecking, demolition, and shipbreaking operations [29 CFR 570.66 (H.O. 15)];
• Occupations in roofing operations [29 CFR 570.67 (H.O. 16)];
• Occupations in excavation operations [29 CFR 570.68 (H.O. 17)];
• Occupations involving exposure to radioactive substances and to ionizing radiations. [29 CFR 570.57 (H.O. 6)].

</B>

nap · 06-23-2008, 08:31 PM

the list I posted for Cali is the federal rules which apparently are what Indiana also observes.

neolitic · 06-23-2008, 08:33 PM

Oh, and they still have to get a work permit
under 18.