I Fear For My Safety

Celtic

There is also an animal called a split-shop....they do both union and non-union jobs using the appropriate men for the task.

__________________

RobertsonBridge

A non-union contractor is more flexible to hire one guy to do multiple crafts. A union contractor usually needs to hire a separate person for each craft on the project.

nap

I haven't checked for Wisconsin but in my home state, a plumber has to be liecnsed. An electrician has to be licensed. Not sure who else but would not be surprised other trades must be as well. So, tell me again how this would allow the contractor to use one guy for multiple trades?

On top of that, jack of all trades, master of none is the general rule and it is generally proper.

I have not met any plumbers that can do my job, correctly, and I am surely not versed in plumbing code.

If you get in to carpenter flavors; that is where a carpenter is a carpenter. You have carpenters that specialize in particular portions of the trade but you have the same thing with electricians and plumbers and fitters etc. Any carpenter is allowed to do all carpenter work.

One size never fits all....well. You can wear the shirt but that does not mean it fits properly.

TBFGhost

...I can't wait to step into the world of Law Enforcement....coming from the construction field i can't stand the Union for the single reason of the bull **** they pull when they don't get chosen. This is America and we are allowed to choose who we want...I will pay very close attention to the union line workers, and network with those they are picketing....if they do anything wrong...it will be dealt with....

In fact, most union construction trade members seem to always be drinkers or drug users...I keep running into alot of them. One day, while at a diner waiting for rain to stop, my boss and I were taking about union vs non-union as he used to be union....some guy that looked like a cracked out jesus butted right in and was getting all pissy and saying how great the union was...almost every other day i see this guys riding his bike down the side of the road...heading to the diner....where he sits all cracked out....right..the union is so great, and that is why you are sitting at a diner with no work...

JMJ

When you become law enforcement, you will be union also. Tell your fellow union law enforcement workers how you feel about the union and see what they have to say. By then maybe your eyes will be opened. As far as the cracked out guy sitting in the diner with no work. Seems that both of you were sitting there with no work.
I've read alot of negative stuff about the unions on this site. The unions have brought alot of negativity on themselves over the years, but most of the garbage spewed here is just flat out uninformed BS. Not one contractor has ever given me a job over anyone because i was union. It always comes down to price. The exception to that is when the owners specifically want union contractors. I STILL HAVE TO BID AND WIN THE JOB!
I do work for a couple of non union general contractors and we've got great relationships. My guys work along side of their guys. We never have any problems and I appreciate their business. They have quality men and so do I. It just happens that i can do certain parts of the job cheaper than they can so i get their business.

If a non union company is paying good wages with benefits then they completely understand what the union companies are feeling while having to compete with 1099 contractors that pay no taxes, unemployment, insurance. Thats illegal and it is starting to catch up with the illegal contractors. More and more across the U.S. the local governmets are starting to crack down on this because they are losing millions in taxes that arent being paid.

Most jobs under $100,000 go to non union while the bigger jobs go union. While this hurts my company because we are small and cant take on million dollar jobs, I still believe in middle class income with retirement and healthcare for my employees. They bust there butts all day long and I appreciate that. I compete every single day with non union contractors and its damn hard. I lose alot more than i get, but i believe in my men and their families.

I don't take it personal if someone chooses to be non union. I don't care, but please quit telling me how the union guys are fat, lazy, drunks and druggies. That just tells me you have no idea what your talking about. If i typecast every non union tradesman because of the a few bad ones that i've ran into, wouldnt that be just ignorant on my part?

Just as a side note, my guys benefit package is $12/ hr.
Some of my non union competitors are beating my prices by less than $2.00 an hour. Are you workers getting that money or is it going into the owners account? My contract is up with the union in April. I will sign a new 4 year deal because i believe its in the best interest of my company, my men, the middle class, my local government, and the trades in general.

Celtic

Dude...you're a joke.
Law enforcement is also unionized.
You will not be doing a dam thing to guys on a picket line that cross some line you perceive to exist.
In case they haven't told you this at the Academy....the police do not police picket lines, "brother"

You're right...this is America - and this is NJ ....and a cop is not going to bully someone based on their own distorted view of reality and the law.

YOU do not get to decide which side of the line YOU "network" with.

What are you smoking?



I am really impressed with your knowledge of union trades people
You have yet to offer 1 single document to support your wild claims. As a wanna-be-cop, you also have me impressed with your evidence gathering abilities.

You have continually based your views on the masses on sporadic chance encounters with only a few ~ God help the "minority" on your watch....all blacks are drug addicts and car jackers too, right

The "union" does not provide jobs.
The union provides men to signatory contractors needing men for their job.
If there is no work, it is not the "fault" of the union.
But you have no idea what you are talking about as you have never been a union tradesmen, right?



Law enforcement has it share of druggies, thieves and , BTW, liars as well [they don't broadcast this at the Academy either]


Let me tell you about the cops I have had - the misfortune - of living next to.

#1 - D.A.R.E. cop....arrested for dealing Ecstasy ~ sold to a Bergen County undercover...in jail now.

#2 - #1's dad [the apple fell real far here ~ LMAO]....tossed off the force for driving his girlfriend around town in a police cruiser so she could deliver the morning news papers. This guy was "brass" BTW.

#3 - caught in NYC doing cocaine....in jail now.

I would happy to have you as the 4th cop neighbor ....you'd be doomed just as the others were.


Don't forget to tell your IUPA "brothers" how low your opinion of the Union trades are.....I'm sure your "brothers" feel the same way



...but in the meantime.....keep on wishing you were actually a cop.

__________________

Static Design

I bet you're a democrat also.

TBFGhost

You are correct sir, LE is union as well, but I don't see or hear of those unions using intimidation of brute force to get what they want. I can sit here and argue with you untill I am blue in the face, but I know 6 union carpenters and they all are...less then ideal persons. And infact, it is only those 6 that I know, so you are correct sir, I do have a very biased view due to my minor experiance with them and the thoughts of the local unions I get from those people around me.

The fact of the matter is, if there is some larger scale picketing going on, it doesn't take much to keep an eye on it, and it doesn't take much to see something go wrong, or make sure the guys who are being picketed know their rights and if things get out of hand they should give call. Could I be getting myself in a world of hurt...I wouldn't be surprized if I did.

I am not here trying to support illegal worker or employers, but I do support the right of choice...and I don't feel that because the union was not chosen they can start using scare tactics on others...again....not saying this happens all the time...but lets be honest, it does happen.

We are going to just argue back and forth, and to me that is okay, I don't take it personally, that is what forums are all about...but this is my view and I am not sure it is going to change...I am sure their are good union members out there...maybe I just need to take a step back and see that the few I see have spoiled my view...just like for many the few bad cops they run into spoil their view of LE....so in that aspect you are correct....

With that said, I have pretty much said my peace...

MALCO.New.York

Then you have never witnessed the Police in a MAJOR CITY!

Rent and Watch "Fort Apache, The Bronx." and "Serpico".

Criminals with Badges and Court Backing.

Not all, especially NOT the "Fresh out of the Military Sociopaths" that are ruling our streets today, but ANYONE wearing at least 2 Bars on His Shoulder.

__________________
Something to One may be Nothing to another!

Ultimate Wisdom---------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

Celtic

The reason you don't see/hear about contract negotiations with LE is simple:
They cannot strike...w/o strike provisions you basically take what is given/offered....if the membership does not like the offer, there is some ways to get what they want, ie "Blue Flu".
I'm guessing you have no concept of the "Code of Silence" and the "Blue Wall".

You are in for a real eye opener.
I wish you the best with LE, but you you need to open your eyes.


That is unfortunate, but I do understand exactly what you mean.


It all depends on what the Captain/Chief's beliefs are...he may be more interested in drug issues, moving violations etc. Things have a direct impact on the masses ~ not some job site that will be all wrapped up in a matter of months.
If you interfere with a picket line - you better have all your ducks in a row [including access to your own legal consul - paid for by you]. The LE origination you become affiliated with is not there to inform a person of their "rights", but rather to "protect and serve". It's a fine line and crossing it may get you in some deep water you don't want to navigate solo.


It's ironic that you mention "right of choice"...as you will not be afforded that "right" as LE.


You are, of course, entitled to your opinions...and I agree, taking it personally and/or resorting to personal attacks isn't opening anyone's eyes - just making the fists tighter.

It is a shame that a cliche holds true:
One bad apple spoils the whole dam bunch.
You can apply that to every occupation...but it's not until you actually know else is in the barrel, that one should render judgment.
This is especially important in LE ~ believe it or not, there are some good, hard working, decent, tax-paying citizens in Paterson, Newark, Jersey City, Camden, etc ....by that same measure, there are some bowels of the earth types in Closter, Far Hills, Summit, etc.


Good luck.

__________________

SelfContract

I read news ..some California county (forgot names) went bankrupt because last few years they collecting so many real restate taxes increased, spending like no tomorrow come... paid fire fighters & policeman salary like $200,000 plus per year plus overtime plus bonuses (more than Judges salary in court)... BUT their unions still asking for more raises every year after that... per UNION CONTRACT with the state/county government. Now, RE goes down the hole, so laid-off of policemen, firemen, & GARBAGE men starts rolling...

It's no wonder... America is a bankrupt nation.. well-spent !!!

TBFGhost

That sucks...I can tell you this much, police pay around my area for a patrol officer tops out at 60-100K in the Western NJ, Eastern PA area...plus overtime...

simplejack

Hey! they passed out color fliers with a RAT eating the American Flag with my company name on it! I have one framed and hung in my office, I thought it was just me! LOL!

you mean the Rat is there official symbol of "scab" contractors?! this is awesome!

bwalley

In front of St Josephs hospital in Tampa they drag out a big rat and complain about non union contractors, it has something to do with medical records, not sure who the union is.

bwalley

If Unions are so great, why is the UAW running the big 3 automakers into the ground?

UAW Workers when laid off make up to 90% of their wages, plus they have their benefits, for 4 years, even when offered other jobs, they can refuse and still get their pay.

Eastern Airlines, out of business because of the Union.

Many of the other older airlines were put out of business by Unions.

Reynolds Metals can plant in tampa went out of business when they were bought by ball container, the union wouldn't take reasonable concessions, Ball locked the doors, sold the plant, now there are apartments on the property.

Remember PATCO?

How many other companies have been run out of business or ended up sending their manufacturing jobs overseas because of Unions?

Unions once had their place in the United States, they now cause more harm than good.

A friend of mine is a crane operator, he is Union, he works 8 months out of the year in a good year, sometimes less, when he is layed off, he doesn't get much if anything from the Union.

Another friend of mine worked ina union plant in michigan, running a machine that made bumper covers, he said whenever the machine went down, he would go to the break room for 4 hours while it was fixed, I asked him why he didn't help fix it or do something else, he said it wasn't his job.

He said later on he learned how to make the machine break and he did this quite a bit so he could get his 4 hour hour break.

I asked him why he moved to florida from Michigan, he said the plants were closing down and there weren't any good jobs, so he came to Florida.

I wonder if the constant down time and paying Union workers to be on break while equipment they sabotaged was being repaired had anything to do with it.

In my experience Unions protect lazy people who care more about 'their rights' than the company keepings its doors open and making a profit.

I don't hire illegals.

I don't hire Union workers when I can avoid it.

Celtic

Of course....this have nothing to do with poor design and corporate golden parachutes

How many companies decided to leave the USA so they could build their products w/o all the hassle of the EPA, a livable wage, etc?





Really.

With wage disparity at an all time high, IMHO, unions are needed now more than ever.

Your operator friend is eligible for unemployment.....but it sure would be nice if he got a nice severance package and a golden parachute.

Earlier, you griped about the UAW folks getting 90% while out of work...this guy gets 0 and you still have a beef.

I guess some people are never happy.

This is understandable....would you want some unqualified hack working on your home [ or your multi-million dollar machine]?

Your "friend" is an a-hole.
He doesn't have a good work ethic.


In some instances, that is correct....and it's the story of the bad apple again.
I have no sympathy for bad apples ~ I do have sympathy for the folks that suffer from the bad apples actions.

No one should...but it isn't a perfect world....some put their own personal greed above all.

That is unfortunate....the bad apples have gotten to you.

__________________

bwalley

I guess I shouldn't have used the term friend when talking about Larry from Michigan, he worked for me when I was in the apartment business, he ended up getting fired and we had to evict him.

My father in law used to work at reynolds metals, he retired long before they were bought by Ball Container, he used to tell me the stories of how people were lazy and would steal from the company, have other people punch them in and out becuase they never even showed up, but the union protected them.

My friend the crane operator gets unemployment from the state, not the Union, his employer not the union pays the premiums.

Every job I have been on that had union workers, they ran their mouth more about what they didn't have to do, than they worried about working.

IMO if you are in a Union it does not make you a better worker, either you have a good work ethic or you don't, but if you are trained to worry more about your rights and don't care if your company remains in business, you will soon be out of work.

Celtic

Larry sounds like a professional screw-up....unfortunately for him, he seems to have had some untapped/refined potential [you did hire him].


EVERYONE steals from the company ...some are just more blatant than others.


I sometimes wonder:Are people inherently lazy?
I know for me, I keep myself occupied [working productively] and the day flies by...I cannot stand "watching the clock"...I'd rather be whistle bit by 5 minutes then watch that dam clock for 10 minutes....those 10 minutes seem to take an hour to pass.



If management [foremen, generals, PMs, etc] did their part and kept the average hat busy on the job, the issue wouldn't exist. [...and the company would remain profitable]



If the company doesn't care about the workers' rights, why should the worker care if the company remains profitable?

I am talking concerns based on safety [MSDS, asbestos, excavations, hot/live work, confined spaces, etc].
I am trained in these areas...but I am not "trained to worry about them"....I am trained to be able to identify and work safely in these conditions.
I have a right [that I will exercise] to return home in the same condition I left home in.

"Rights" is a very broad and varied term....what "rights" are you talking about?

__________________

bwalley

I didn't hire Larry, when another property was sold that he worked at, he came to work for me, I had no say in the matter.

I never said all people in unions steal.

I personally feel better when I am working, I prefer to be in the field but many times like now, I am in the office, I do think some people are just lazy and some become lazy.

I don't try and screw my employee's or my subs, they do not work in unsafe conditions, any safety equipment they need, I provide, anything additional they want, I get it for them.

You are correct that the employee and subs have a Right to a safe workplace, what I am talking about is the guys who are more concerned about 'their' smoke breaks and what they don't have to do, rather than getting the job done.

I have been on jobs where they had Union framers, 1 guy would do the steel, then they had to bring in another guy to do the deadwood, they were supposed to clean up their own mess, but said since they were Union, they didn't have to.

Celtic

Neither did I...I said: "EVERYONE steals from the company"
Be it a handful of nails, skipping out early, yapping on the phone planning events for after work, etc.

Not arguments from me at all.



Big difference between want and need...I have guys "want" some pretty absurd items in the "name of safety".

8 for 8 is what I say...if you have chance to grab a smoke, do it - don't "create" smoke breaks.

Most of the disagreements I have seen on jobs is the opposite ~ one trade "taking" another trade's work. The debate centers around who does the work - not who doesn't.

Disagreements about not doing work seem to center around things such as cutting holes in tile...the guy doesn't want the responsibility for breaking the tile [thus avoiding any back charge to the contractor].

It must be different where you are
The laborers are usually complaining that we are "taking their work".

__________________