Security wire code?? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Jason W · 03-09-2009, 02:18 PM

I'm trying to finish up an exterior restoration project. At the moment we have the lower portion of the window framing exposed and there is a security wire going through that has been spliced, then soldered, and then black taped.

This was installed during the 80's but the Architect say's it doesn't meet code and expects the security company to put it in conduit and provide a pull box. The security company say's they never heard of such a thing for Residential work.

All in the mean time, my schedule is going to hell because I can't put the sills back on to close the opening and move on.

Does this code really exist? I must say this is new to me but I'm not up on electrical code. This is what the Architect has ordered in his own words....

Hammond Security maintains that their alarm wiring must be soldered and taped rather than spliced, and exposed.

As per NEC code Section 300-15. Boxes, Coduit Bodies or Fittings- Where required.“…..a box or conduit body complying with Article 370 shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet,
switch point, jumction point, or pull point……..”

Action: Hammond Security is to immediately rectify all incorrect installation and install junction boxes required, or rewire with continous runs where required as per NEC code Section 300-15, or propose alternative code compliant solution; and not to cause any delay on the overall project schedule.

Celtic · 03-09-2009, 02:47 PM

How many volts is the alarm operating at?

Where is my question headed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

As per NEC code Section 300-15. Boxes, Coduit Bodies or Fittings- Where required.“…..a box or conduit body complying with Article 370 shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet,
switch point, jumction point, or pull point……..”

Article 300 does not *generally* pertain to LV systems.
Boxes may not even be a requirement.
Have you archy look at 300.1, 300.2, et al.

Jason W · 03-09-2009, 03:14 PM

It's a 12v system

The security guy say's they wired the Architects building the same way and it wasn't an issue

WTF?

Celtic · 03-09-2009, 04:00 PM

Have Hammond go with option "B":

Quote:

or propose alternative code compliant solution;

Option "B" being...leave it be ~ it's not an NEC code violation.

Have the archy...

Quote:

not to cause any delay on the overall project schedule.

Security101 · 03-09-2009, 07:36 PM

As stated above - it is not code for standard 12volt alarm splices to be in a box (it's wise though for future service).

They should be accessible (even if that means removal of the trim or sill) but it is not required.

I have installed thousands of window contacts with the splice down in the hole, never had an issue.

As far as soldered splices or "B" connectors - either is fine - not using either of those options (just twisting) is just stupid for the alarm co. Soldered joints should be wrap-taped (covering the top of the splice with a fold before completing the taping).

I personally install a box by windows in new construction just for the purpose of future repairs being easier, but the switch to the wire area will still have splices.

Jim

mickeyco · 03-09-2009, 07:40 PM

I would run all new rigid conduit with threaded fittings, just in case.

.

Security101 · 03-09-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeyco

I would run all new rigid conduit with threaded fittings, just in case.
.

Explosion proof too...

Jim

Celtic · 03-09-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeyco

I would run all new rigid conduit with threaded fittings, just in case.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Security101

Explosion proof too...

Jim

PVC coated RMC

Jason W · 03-09-2009, 08:37 PM

Thanks guys, I passed the info along to the security guy. The Archi also wants spray foam under the sill, but thats another chapter. Nothing like turning a minor wire repair into a major digging event!

Thanks Celtic for pointing out the code sections, I don't have a code book for NEC but the security guy does and he will be reading up on it tonight I'm sure.

Security101 · 03-09-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

The Archi also wants spray foam under the sill, but thats another chapter.

Oh it sure is (not just the rising sill issue) that will permanently trap those little wires/splices/possible EOLR's, and future repairs will involve demo ($$) to fix the contacts and/or a system upgrade to wireless ($$$$)

I highly recommend you (or someone) pack some fiberglass insulation around the wires/splices to shield them from the foam and allow them to be pulled up 3" or better!

Jim

ABLE1 · 03-09-2009, 09:22 PM

Please, Please come back and tell us all the final on this non code issue.

Thanks muchly!!!!

Hope you have a better day tomorrow.

Les

Jason W · 03-09-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABLE1

Please, Please come back and tell us all the final on this non code issue.

Thanks muchly!!!!

Hope you have a better day tomorrow.

Les

Will do

Celtic · 03-09-2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

The Archi also wants spray foam under the sill, but thats another chapter. Nothing like turning a minor wire repair into a major digging event!

Have you offered to fill his whale eye with foam?

Jason W · 03-10-2009, 07:05 PM

I got a hold of the book and looked at 300.1 and 300.2. All I could get from it for this situation is that requirement under Chapter 3 was for 600 volts and less. Nothing excluded a 12v system.

Celtic · 03-10-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

I got a hold of the book and looked at 300.1 and 300.2. All I could get from it for this situation is that requirement under Chapter 3 was for 600 volts and less. Nothing excluded a 12v system.

The NEC is a strange book...unless specifically prohibited, it is allowed.
[NOTE: All my references are based on the '02 NEC, as they jive with other reference material posted - if your area is under a different code year -----LET ME KNOW----- I'll provide a cross reference]

Quote:

300.2 Limitations.
(A) Voltage.
Wiring methods specified in Chapter 3 shall be used for 600 volts, nominal, or less where not specifically limited in some section of Chapter 3. They shall be permitted for over 600 volts, nominal, where specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

One distinct point here:
- Where specifically permitted elsewhere ?

The Fine Print Note in 300.3(C) tells us:

Quote:

FPN:See 725.55(A) for Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors.

[NOTE: 725.55(A) tells us not to mix Class 1 with Class 2/3]

...but wait a second....how can we be sure this alarm circuit isn't a Class 1 circuit?
And how do we know if it's a Class 2 or Class 3????

This little diddy will help us:
Understanding NEC Circuit Classifications

Quote:

To understand how and when to apply NEC Art. 725*, you must first understand how the NEC classifies remote-control, signal, and power-limited circuits. Each classification addresses different energy levels.

Class 1 circuits. Class 1 remote-control and signaling circuits typically operate at 120V, but the NEC permits them to operate at up to 600V [725.21(B)]. You must install these circuits within a wiring method listed in Chapter 3 of the NEC, which includes raceways, cables, and enclosures for splices and terminations [725.25].Remote-control circuit. These circuits, which control other circuits through relays or equivalent devices [100], are commonly used to operate motor controllers in moving equipment, mechanical processes, elevators, and conveyors.Signaling circuit. These circuits energize signaling equipment [100] and are typically used to operate a bell or horn, or to illuminate a light in a control panel.Power-limited circuit. These circuits are supplied by a source with a rated output of not more than 30V and 100VA [725.21(A)].

Class 2 circuits. Class 2 circuits typically include wiring for low-energy (100VA or less), low-voltage (under 30V) loads such as low-voltage lighting, thermostats, PLCs, security systems, and limited-energy voice, intercom, sound, and public address systems. You can also use them for twisted-pair or coaxial local area networks (LAN) [725.41(A)(4)]. Class 2 circuits protect against electrical fires by limiting the power to 100VA for circuits that operate at 30V or less, and 0.5VA for circuits between 30V and 150V. You protect against electric shock by limiting the current of the circuit to 5mA or less for circuits between 30V and 150V [Chapter 9, Table 11].
You can wire Class 2 circuits with Class 2 cable or any of its substitutes permitted by Table 725.61(A), depending on the condition of use.

Class 3 circuits. Use Class 3 circuits when the power demand for circuits over 30V exceeds 0.5VA, but is not more than 100VA [Chapter 9, Table 11]. We often use Class 3 signaling circuits for security systems and public address systems; voice, intercom, and sound systems; and some nurse call systems. Higher levels of voltage and current are permitted for Class 3 circuits (in contrast to Class 2 circuits). To prevent an electric shock hazard, the wiring must be rated no less than 300V [725.71(E) and (F)]. Wiring methods that meet this requirement include PLTC Cable, Class 3 Cable, or any of its permitted substitutions listed in Table 725.61(A), depending on the condition of use.
*All Code references come from the 2002 NEC.

The NEC offers this:

Quote:

725.2
Class 1 Circuit. The portion of the wiring system between
the load side of the overcurrent device or power-limited
supply and the connected equipment.
FPN: See 725.21 for voltage and power limitations of
Class I circuits.

Class 2 Circuit. The portion of the wiring system between
the load side of a Class 2 power source and the connected
equipment. Due to its power limitations, a Class 2 circuit
considers safety from a fire initiation standpoint and provides
acceptable protection from electric shock.

Class 3 Circuit. The portion of the wiring system between
the load side of a Class 3 power source and the connected
equipment. Due to its power limitations, a Class 3 circuit considers
safety from a fire initiation standpoint. Since higher
levels of voltage and current than for Class 2 are permitted,
additional safeguards are specified to provide protection from
an electric shock hazard that could be encountered.

So, what Class circuit are we actually dealing with here?
My money is on either a Class 2 or a 3 - but not a Class 1 installation [it's a 12v security system]...leaning heavily towards a Class 2

So what does 725 have to say about splicing Class 2 and 3 ?
Not much as Article 300 - or even Chapter 3 in it's entirety - does not apply to Class 2 and 3 circuits unless specifically indicated.

Here is another tidbit from our friends over at EC&M:
Reduce installation costs without compromising safety when dealing Class 1 remote-control, signaling, and power-limited circuits

I'll cut right to the quick, but you can read the entire article if you wish:

Quote:

Except where Art. 725 refers to specific Art. 300 requirements, Art. 300 requirements do not apply to Class 2, and 3 circuits [725.3], but Art. 300 does apply to Class 1 circuits [725.25]. Boxes or other enclosures aren't required for Class 2 or Class 3 splices or terminations, because Art. 725 doesn't reference 300.15 for Class 2 and Class 3 circuits. But you do need a box for a splice or termination in a fire-rated assembly, regardless of what Class the circuit is comprised of [300.21].

300.21 states:

Quote:

300.21 Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion.
Electrical installations in hollow spaces, vertical shafts, and ventilation or air-handling ducts shall be made so that the possible spread of fire or products of combustion will not be substantially increased. Openings around electrical penetrations through fire-resistant-rated walls, partitions, floors, or ceilings shall be firestopped using approved methods to maintain the fire resistance rating.

...but 300.21 does NOT apply ~ you are not in an air handling situation or a duct.

ABLE1 · 03-10-2009, 10:35 PM

Ok, I admit that it really is a code issue when explained the way Celtic explains it. However I will continue to consider it as a not code issue just to ease my brain a little.

Thanks for the detail Celtic. Give yourself a raise.

Les

mickeyco · 03-10-2009, 10:47 PM

Tell the architect the cable TV wires, door bell wires and the telephone wire need to go in conduit as well or just tell him to get bent, that's what I would do, but I'd do it a nice menacing way.

.

Celtic · 03-10-2009, 10:54 PM

Lemme tell you...explaining some of the LV stuff is a bigger PITA than explaining how to terminate a 5kv cable:

What's under all that rubber?

..... and it all needs to be put together "just so" to avoid a light show and releasing the "Holy Ghost".

Meanwhile, some architect is all in a tizzy about a 12v alarm system

Jason W · 03-14-2009, 06:54 PM

Well guys, I was promised a conclusion to this mess by the end of the week and never got one. Big meeting on site about this w/the Archi, Me, and the Owners on Tuesday.

This affects all of my work thats over 3' off the ground. I told them I was going to send 3 guys instead of six next week because the job was basically shut down until this gets resolved. I also said that we wouldn't be there the following week if we still couldn't move forward.

That got everyone's attention quick!

ABLE1 · 03-14-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

Well guys, I was promised a conclusion to this mess by the end of the week and never got one. Big meeting on site about this w/the Archi, Me, and the Owners on Tuesday.

This affects all of my work thats over 3' off the ground. I told them I was going to send 3 guys instead of six next week because the job was basically shut down until this gets resolved. I also said that we wouldn't be there the following week if we still couldn't move forward.

That got everyone's attention quick!

Now that you have their ATTENTION what happened then???

Inquiring minds (aka US) need to know!!!