Treated Lumber

Tralene

Since the advent of the "big box stores" ,has the quality of availble pressure treated forced you to "hand pick " your dimensonal lumber >?
In our case it has paying " top dollar " at the Mom & Pop lumber yards has fared only slightly better , when our rejection rate climbed above 35 % for delivered framing packages, we opted to pick our own

RobertCDF

I know that what I have to say will be frowned upon by most. But I am not lying when I tell you this. I order all my PT and composite from H.D. when I order I order 1 extra joist and that is usually fine. I reject 1 MAYBE 2 joists a project. This 1 H.D. that I shop at is the exception and not the rule. 3 of the 4 pro deck guys are former tradesmen/contractors and the other 1 has learned a LOT from the other 3. He knows enough that I did not even know he did not have a construction background. They do try their very best to cater to contractors and they do a very good job of it. They make sure that my lumber is good and they fix anything they mess up and things I mess up. Even when I paid for my order and they had put in 16' 2x8's instead of 12' then signed the delivery slip. Then I called back a day later to ask what was on the original order. They told me 16', and I said I wanted 12'. I asked did I pay for 16's? they said yes and said "Dont worry about it cut what you need toss the rest and we will get you a refund." 2 days later is was back in my bank. I never even had to go to the store. Now I know that a regular lumberyard SHOULD do the same thing for you. And I am sure that they do in most cases. But I had tried working with another "real" lumberyard and they wanted to charge me a LOT more per LF and the framing materials cost quite a bit more as well. Then I had to take quite a few joists back because they sucked.

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bob the builder

Lumberyards are as good as their employees. It doesn't matter where you go. You can get good service anywhere if the employees handling your business want to give good service. The biggest problem with big box stores is the forklift drivers/lumber pullers have to many duties to perform in a day so since pulling quality lumber takes longer to do, good lumber pulling tends to suffer. Its difficult being a manager at a big box store because some guy in an office in a different state tells him he should have three employees on staff in the morning regaurdless of what daily tasks need to be addressed to take care of contractors/customers. So it ends up being regional managers micro managing store managers micro managing department managers.

Bob
So this manager has no choice but to overload his workers with work.

kklick

Well I work for a "real lumber yard". I don't have anything to do with building the deck packages or anything but I know what goes into it. Our load builders do not sort the deck framing material. They pull the top material and ship it.

Now working on both ends I tend to understand where they are coming from here. There is no way for a lumber yard to actually cull through all of the material and send only select framing material to a customer. What would you expect them to do with everything that is bad?

If I'm out building a deck I've usually found there is not much material that I can not make use of somewhere in the deck. Nothing a little ripping and cutting won't cure.

bob the builder

Out of high school I worked also worked at a lumberyard pulling deliveries for contractors. Then I went on to manage the yard for 5 years. When I picked out lumber for deliveries I did inspect every board. You know your pulling a deck order and know what is good and bad for a deck Well you want some joists that are straight and no splits. Deckboards need one good side. If I am purchasing #2 cedar I expect it to be #2. #2 isn't a board that was damaged by a forklift tine. A 16' 2x8 with a 2' split on the end isn't really a 16' Contractors can't afford to run back to the store for 1/ 2x12x16 because it was structually unsound.



So what do you do with everything that is bad.
Return it to vendor
don't except delivery if it looks bad.
Get a new vendor.
Cut up into useable lengths
sell at lowered price as economy grade.
sell pallets of 4' lengths.

IHI

I'm on board with RobertCDF. I do ALOT of lumber purchases through Menards that typically had a bad reputation for lumber, when I sell decks/garages the first question almost always asked is "where do you buy your lumber?" When I tell them Menards it then turns into a convince me type pitch and I always leave them with "your free to look at all of the lumber, and if there are pieces that dont meet your expectations I'll have the rep drop off new stuff to replace it." EVERYTIME-literally-the husbands come out to talk and say they cant beileve that material came from menards.

I'm lucky that I'm on a first name bases with many of the yard guys and they know I'm particular. Even so we're lucky in the fact they have the experienced guys and all they do is pull orders-that's their only job all day and everyone of them knows what a good contractor expects and there will be an occasional bark board, but more often than not it's often scarey at the straight, knot free lumber they drop off for us. This is what keeps me spending as much as I do annually with them since I'm comfortable with the products they deliver...and the board or two that is'nt upto snuff, I make a phone call and within a few hrs it's replaced and the bad items taken away-no fuss no muss.

Our mom and pop lumber yard charges excessively for material, the only boards that are worth the money are studs and 8'ers, everything else is crap. Treated lumber is nothing more than green bark.

I'm yet to purchase through HD, only reason is I do alot of millwork installs for them and the "help" they employ lacks obvious mental capacity compared to the guys I deal with at the "other store"

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bob the builder

That's the store I worked at out of high school. Good ole Menards...

Bob

AndyJones

all you guys that shop at the big boxes should be ashamed of yourselves. I wouldn't walk into one of these stores if they paid me. Next time you are in the store and purchasing PT, take a look at the end-tag that is supposed to be on all PT lumber. Here in Cali, HD does not stock "ground contact" treated lumber. They stock above ground treated and dont bother to advertise this fact. This treating process is cheaper, but the practice of selling this product for posts and deck packages is not safe. That is why your local "mom and pop" strore is more exspensive, they do things correctly. I'm not saying this is how all big boxes work, I'm just saying this is how they work in Cali. Your local lumberyard more than likey had a hand in building the community you live in (literally and figuratively). And for a couple cents a foot your willing to put money in the pocket of some faceless big box. If your only selling point is cost, I dont want you as my contractor.

RobertCDF

First of all I dont need ground contact PT all my posts sit on a base a post base that is raised at least 1" off the concrete. And you insulting the way I run my business does not change the way I will do business. And maybe the local lumberyard would get my business if they cared a little more about the smaller contractors. Just so you know how much they ignore the smaller guys. I could walk into the local lumberyard (that also has a storefront) and walk out with a saw without being stopped. Why? because they dont even notice the little guys. I cant walk into or out of my H.D. without at least 4 people saying hi to me by name. Would I like to work with a real lumberyard? YES, but only if they can offer me more... and they dont. So untill then screw them they dont deserve my business.

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Mike Finley

You are saying the labels don't show the percentages on them? That isn't my experience ever. All labels show the percentages, you are supposed to know what percentage is ground contact or not. You're not getting anything for free, they charge accordingly to what it is. You are acting like they are falsifying documents or something.

Regardless - I have always over ordered by 15%, you cull as you build and give the crap back to whomever you are buying from for a refund when you are done. They give you any lip about it being left out in the rain you tell them nope, it was covered the whole time, now where is my money? If they want to even dream of a restocking fee, they are going to be losing my business.

IHI

I buy little things from mom and pop when I'm going by there, but financially there is no way I could sell jobs for what they go for around here and then buy the "diamond laced lumber" ma and pa sell...I would have no profit. and if I try to sell a job for a higher price to use ma and pa then homies go elsewhere for lower bid.

When I can save $2.28 PER 2x4x8' going through a home center vs ma and pa....guess where I'm going. 1/2" OSB at homcenter is $17.98 compared to $26.43 at ma and pa....add up the amount needed to a yrs worth of jobs and the business answer is clear as day.

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AndyJones

Wow, things are definately done different at the boxes here in Cali. You might have four employees know you by name, but they dont know what the hell they are talking about. Jim that is in lumber this week was in the Garden section last week and working in tools the week before that. The level of expertise at the boxes is staggeringly low. Thats why I support my ma and pa stores. A lot of these yards have been passed down through the generations, and this bussiness is a family bussiness, much like many of you contractors out there. You run your own bussiness and that puts food on your tables, same as the local lumberyard. As far as I am concerned (and this is going to sound corny) the local lumberyard is an American institution. As for the comments about price point, if that is a deal breaker for you more often than not, you are not the contractor I want to hire. By supporting my local lumber yard, and advertising that I do so, this is actually a selling point for me. Try it on for size, and you will be suprised at the results you get. By the way, all you big box shoppers drive Toyotas and do all your household shopping at Wal-Mart too?

Bone Saw

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RobertCDF

As I said before the guys at the pro desk (The only ones I would ever ask a question from) 3 of the 4 are former trades men. As well as the fact that they have been at the desk ONLY for years (not in other departments everyother week)

I do shop at wal mart for a lot of things. I am sorry but when I am not going to pay $1 more for some FOOD item that is the SAME BRAND that the local grocery store has. Its JUST FOOD its not "despeced" to get the lower price and it tastes the same because it is the same. And after all its FOOD it turns into WASTE so I prefer to toss as little money away as possible. Make sense?

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RYANINMICHIGAN

I think the mexcians are taking all of our good lumber. Really though. maybe it verys by region but I see Lowes and HD lumber being subpar as a whole. i buy 90% through UBC the quality is better and they are cheaper then HD or Lowes. over order by 10-15% always have what I need when I need it

Riversong

Not corny at all. Small, locally-owned businesses are what made the American economy what it is today. Big corporations are exploitative by their very nature. Most new job creation is due to small business startups and expansions. And local businesses spend more of their money locally, so it recirculates in the community.

I've had accounts at more than a dozen local lumberyards in three states, and I've always been treated well and received good service. As a matter of principle, I won't take my business to the Big Box stores since they are what's destroying Main Street USA.

If the Big Boxes are realy the only place some of you can get good service and good quality (which I doubt), then that puts you in something of a quandary. But I bet that if you talk to the local lumber yard about what your needs are and how they could get/keep your business, they'd be responsive.

Now wait a minute! I don't shop at Wal*Mart, but I do drive a Toyota Tundra because it's simply the best truck on the market, and GM and Ford aren't exactly Mom & Pop shops.

Actually it doesn't make any sense at all. First it's not even "food", its some kind of manufactured product that is sold as food. Here in the rural paradise of Vermont, we know the difference between food (grown locally and organically) and what comes in boxes and cans in the supermarket, or in crates from countries that spray all the pesticides banned in the US.

Spending "less" at Wal*Mart on something as important as food, means spending more for medical care because you can't stay healthy on what they sell or on the air and water quality that they leave behind. And it also means the eventual extinction of Main Street stores, small-scale farms, and thriving communities.

What Wal*Mart offers - and all the Big Box stores - is a devil's bargain. It looks cheap at the cash register, but we'll be paying the bill for generations trying to undo the social, economic, and ecological damage that they created.

- Robert

AndyJones

Great points Riversong. I didn't mean any disrespect towards your Toyota, just making a point about keeping our money in our economy. I want to buy American made products that feed American families from bussinesses that pay fair wages and dont exploit loopholes in pay scale and benefits. I'm making generalizations here, but the same guys that shop at big boxes are the same guys that are picking up the illegal workers that are taking jobs from American citizens (you dont see these guys hanging out in the parking lot of ma and pa's store, do you?). Let me jump up on my high horse real quick.....ok. It absolutely boggles the mind as to how these self made men, contractors running your own bussiness, only look out for yourselves. Where did you buy your materials when you started your bussiness? Who was there to lend you a credit line when you had no credit? How soon we forget.

RobertCDF

I will tell you who was there when I needed a credit line... NOT my local yards who dont give a rip about anyone spending less than a million a year. When I was first starting to go into business for myself I applied for a personal HD card and got a $5,000 credit line. Now its at $11,000 I absolutly GUARANTEE that my local lumber yards would not have given me $5,000 right off the bat. I had to use some of that to get certain tools that I did not yet own. Good luck getting a local yard to give you $5,000 and give you a year to pay it back interest free on your tools. Please show me a yard that does this.

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AndyJones

Well, I'm obviously not going to convince Robert of my opinion any quicker than he will convince me of his. And thats fine, we call them opinions and not truths for a reason. The Depot tag line was "best price, guarunteed." Says nothing of qaulity, service, or dependability. Obviously Robert has a different experiance than I do. For me, I would rather have the latter over the former any day of the week. Thats how I operate my bussiness, and thats how I want my suppliers to operate thier bussiness. Different strokes for different folks.

IHI

Well since we have some high horses here we might as well talk about it since alot of us are not as fortunate. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the situation of losing jobs to lower bids, for the rest of you that have paid your dues and found your market of customers that can afford to pay the extra 20-30% material mark-up just cuz it comes from ma and pa, your very lucky and obviously you've earned it. But I'm sure your nitche was not filled overnight and is something you had to work upto....many folks are not born with silver spoons and perfect world networking to allow this to happen overnight.

So until then I and I'm sure ALOT of others that may or may not chime in are still working through the idea of buying material where it's cheaper to offer a bid that will be competative and have a chance at being accepted since I think it's safe to say (for me anyways) MOST of the customers could care less about anything but the bottom line, once in awhile you can talk them into upgrading a little here or there to make the job be that much better, but more often than not fly by night frank will get the job even if it's only $100 cheaper. Not ALL regions and all customer can afford the luxury of being able to afford a champange budget...most are still on a beer budget. For that 1-2% of people that can afford to really hand over a blank check, there are 98-99% more than are working paycheck to paycheck trying to make their home nicer with what they can afford....that extra $1-2K for like material from mom and pop can go along ways towards something else.

I run into this type of "forgetful" memory with many that have "made it" at the race track all the time. All they ever preach is buy this or buy that and everything they have to say revolves around the big money products....but years and years before they were like alot of others starting out only being able to purchase the best they could afford. With all of the sucessful people I've met, there are very few that will actually admit they're mortal and had a history that was hard to get them where they're at and could care less about "REAL WORLD" issues at hand because now their "above all that". welp, newsflash...there's alot more people with real world money issues than not. Why would I spend that extra $60/wk for groceries at a family grocery franchise over wal-mart?? $240 extra a month is one hellava way to stash for a family vacation or IRA. I'm all for helping the local economy...but I also have bills and a family to think about.

Someday I hope to have the nose up attitude and can come here and preach to the quire about not supporting ma and pa lumber yard even though it really screws up the lil guys profit margins or results in a non sale. Does ma and pa help pay your mortgage when your not working since the job quotes are too high and customer goes elsewhere? Every situation is different and we all have to do what we have to do to make a living and have a life too. Not saying everything should be done as cheaply as possbile, but there are borders we all must work within.

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