Timbertech

redwood · 08-11-2008, 03:33 PM

Hey guys I got a couple of questions for you.

I've been building decks for over 30 years, originally almost all redwood, now mostly ipe. You can count on one hand how many composite decks we've done.

Well I'm bidding on a 2000+ sq. ft. referall deck that the owner wants TT earthtone teak. Picture framed with teak then walnut. Using conceal lock fastners.

My questions?

One of the decks is 72' long, the other 64' long. Do you ever stagger joints, like we do with real wood, or do you normally use a perpendicular separation board? Is the separation board usually the same color or contrasting?

Do you face screw the picture frame or do you still try to use the HFS brackets? How about steps, same question?

Thanks

BreyerConstruct · 08-11-2008, 04:37 PM

Lemme answer a few:

Face screw using Headcote's on outside & inside ends, and all steps.
We've staggered joints, but butt boards look better, if the layout lends itself to it.

Awesome stuff to work with.
Figure $1 a sq. ft. for the clips, and a few x that for the increased labor. But, if you're comfortable with IPE, you'll be in a good position for this install. Look up a past thread of mine on installing this decking, there were a lot of good comments on installation tricks that some of the guys chipped in with!

We'll use all matching decking... and sometimes a different color. Say, use the Teak for all horizontal surfaces, with the Walnut for the accent pieces, risers & fascia, etc. It can be a nice look, but run it by your client. I always offer to mix-n-match the colors for free, as kinda a "value added" piece.

PS. Check your material numbers, as TT has gone thru several upcharges this year so far.

Sounds like a heck of a project!
Keep us posted.
~Matt

Greg Di · 08-11-2008, 05:56 PM

Ditto what Matt said.

I think using ConceaLocs is faster than face screwing to be honest-laborwise.

I never, ever butt boards on a joist. Use a seam board. It's so much nicer looking and it's a great design feature.

I'm doing a Teak/Walnut two tone job next week. Same as Matt, I don't charge extra for two tone, but I do charge for picture framing as it adds to my material and labor. It's easy to go overkill on it. Less is better, but enough contrast to make sure you did it on purpose and didn't run out a color!

Anyplace you use a face screw on Earthwoods, you really need to predrill. I have not found any composite screw that doesn't look like hell on EW without a nice pre-drill. It's a pita to use HFS on the picture frame because you have rout the end of every board to do it. Talk about slowing down productivity. The face screws are not really noticeable. Don't gun them in. Gentle countersink is all you need.

My cell # is on my profile on the "other site". Call me if you need more info.

BuiltByMAC · 08-12-2008, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

It's a pita to use HFS on the picture frame because you have rout the end of every board to do it. Talk about slowing down productivity.

Actually, you'd only have to rout the ends of the interior boards 16" oc. Using a router and a slot cutter bit, you can rout out a 3" chunk, drop your ConcealLoc in and thump your picture framed piece into place (you will have to rout the inside edge of the picture-framed board).

To complete the hidden fastening, run screws up from underneath the front edge of the picture framed board - at a 45º angle through the rim joist into the bottom of the picture frame.

I'll drop this tidbit in 'cause I've heard a couple of people going on about how "the instructions say to hold the decking at an angle to install it on the concealLocs, how do I do that w/ a 20' board?"
Don't even worry about holding the decking up at an angle while moving it into position on the ConcealLocs...just lay it on the framing and slam it into place w/ your hands. If your hands get sore, drop a 6' chunk of 2x down and hit it w/ a hammer to thump the decking onto the fastener.

As to butting ends or dropping in a seam board...I normally (always) put a seam board in. Having said that, I've never built a 72' long deck. It might look better having a continuous deck w/ no seam boards for that long of a area. Unless it makes sense visually to have it broken into 4 sections, you might be better off just butting ends. (Don't forget to block under the butt joints) It would be much harder to keep all four sections lined up if they were broken up (Snapping lines over 72' feet might introduce error just because of the distance)

There's a ton of threads here on installing TimberTech - pick a slow night (yeah right!) and settle in...there's a lot of information here.

2K sq. ft? Damn, that's a huge deck!! Is this for a commercial application?

Mac

redwood · 08-12-2008, 03:53 AM

Thanks for the info guys. The deck is a residential hillside deck, utilizing steel columns.

I have done larger decks, though not many. I'm also in the design process of another deck of similar size, only it will be ipe.

I've gone back and read some of the excellent threads covering this topic.

I'm kind of sports nut and the olympics really screw with my schedule. Damn Tivo!

neolitic · 08-12-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC

Actually, you'd only have to rout the ends of the interior boards 16" oc. Using a router and a slot cutter bit, you can rout out a 3" chunk, drop your ConcealLoc in and thump your picture framed piece into place (you will have to rout the inside edge of the picture-framed board).

To complete the hidden fastening, run screws up from underneath the front edge of the picture framed board - at a 45º angle through the rim joist into the bottom of the picture frame.

I'll drop this tidbit in 'cause I've heard a couple of people going on about how "the instructions say to hold the decking at an angle to install it on the concealLocs, how do I do that w/ a 20' board?"
Don't even worry about holding the decking up at an angle while moving it into position on the ConcealLocs...just lay it on the framing and slam it into place w/ your hands. If your hands get sore, drop a 6' chunk of 2x down and hit it w/ a hammer to thump the decking onto the fastener.

As to butting ends or dropping in a seam board...I normally (always) put a seam board in. Having said that, I've never built a 72' long deck. It might look better having a continuous deck w/ no seam boards for that long of a area. Unless it makes sense visually to have it broken into 4 sections, you might be better off just butting ends. (Don't forget to block under the butt joints) It would be much harder to keep all four sections lined up if they were broken up (Snapping lines over 72' feet might introduce error just because of the distance)

There's a ton of threads here on installing TimberTech - pick a slow night (yeah right!) and settle in...there's a lot of information here.

2K sq. ft? Damn, that's a huge deck!! Is this for a commercial application?

Mac

Mac, just a thought, if I were doing a lot
of that stuff?
I think I'd use that as an excuse
to buy a biscuit cutter.
Is there some reason
they won't work for those ends?

BuiltByMAC · 08-12-2008, 09:56 AM

Believe me, it's on my wish list! Just haven't broken down and picked one up yet - the router does the job and it's in my shop already. One of these days...

Mac

Greg Di · 08-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC

Believe me, it's on my wish list! Just haven't broken down and picked one up yet - the router does the job and it's in my shop already. One of these days...

Mac

I never even bothered trying my biscuit joiner on TT only because they say to use a router although I now other TC clips work with a joiner. Duh...

I wonder if the height of the slot will be enough to fit the clip. My router bit hogs out a pretty wide slot and the pregrooved boards have a wide groove too.

A biscuit joiner would be way faster because you could slot in situ whereas the nut on the slot cutter bit prevents the router from being able to be used over a joist because the nut projects too far below.

Greg Di · 08-12-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC

I'll drop this tidbit in 'cause I've heard a couple of people going on about how "the instructions say to hold the decking at an angle to install it on the concealLocs, how do I do that w/ a 20' board?"
Don't even worry about holding the decking up at an angle while moving it into position on the ConcealLocs...just lay it on the framing and slam it into place w/ your hands. If your hands get sore, drop a 6' chunk of 2x down and hit it w/ a hammer to thump the decking onto the fastener.

We just slide and slam them in too. No tilting required!

We carry rubber mallets to "massage" the boards into the clips when needed, however I was just at the junk store (Harbor Freight) and bought these nifty hammer head covers. It's a rubber nub that slips over your framing hammer so you don't have to carry a massive rubber mallet around. For $10, I got 3 of them. Looked like a better concept than fighting with rubber mallets trying to fall out of my hammer loop all day.

I have had so-so success with the underneath toe screwing. It can be awkward to do and if you miss or go in at the wrong angle, you can penetrate to the deck board (don't ask how I know). I think the most foolproof way is to strike a like on the face of joist to mark the "spot" for screw entry once you figure it out.

deckman22 · 08-12-2008, 10:32 AM

I did one this spring that was 66' long, ran the decking away from the house to avoid butt joints or having to use seperation boards. I would use a seperation board before having butt joints on all that composite. The teak decking looks great picture framed with walnut, don't know about a double picture frame using teak too tho, maybe double walnut, but that's the customers call. I also always screw the steps. The company that makes headcoat screws makes some colored composite screws that work pretty good, if screwed down perfectly flush no predrill needed, but in it took only a frog's hair more to cause a mushroom.

Bone Saw · 08-12-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

the nut on the slot cutter bit prevents the router from being able to be used over a joist because the nut projects too far below.

I like the router over teh buiscuit joiner as there are many "position prohibitive" situations not so with the router, got this bit at woodcrafter, 1/4 slotting bit perfect for conceal locs. as far as seem boards/picture frame depending how your framing is on all the cut ends(double joist) you don't need to route/slot anything, I just put the conceal loc into the endcut of 2 boards (which already have a conceal loc at the end) seam boards go in as normal, than either with a dremel or air die grinder and cutoff wheel knock off the remaining tabs holding down seam board, and run your next "segment/run"

I agree with mac on the long/narrow runs and seam boards, depending on your run offset, 13'9 works for running 20's @ 45 w/o joints, addionally tweeking it more acute or obtuse (within reason) and adjusting your o.c. so as not to have razor thin tapered cut ends works eqaully as good for making optimal material usage

neolitic · 08-12-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC

Believe me, it's on my wish list! Just haven't broken down and picked one up yet - the router does the job and it's in my shop already. One of these days...

Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

I never even bothered trying my biscuit joiner on TT only because they say to use a router although I now other TC clips work with a joiner. Duh...

I wonder if the height of the slot will be enough to fit the clip. My router bit hogs out a pretty wide slot and the pregrooved boards have a wide groove too.

A biscuit joiner would be way faster because you could slot in situ whereas the nut on the slot cutter bit prevents the router from being able to be used over a joist because the nut projects too far below.

The PC cutter is on my list,but
there is one near by that waaay
too easy to borrow when needed.

There are at least 2 different thicknesses
of cutter blades in this guy's kit.

redwood · 08-12-2008, 11:26 AM

I have a couple of biscuit joiners, but I don't think the blade is as thick as is required for the fastners. I'll look into that.

The picture frame would be 2 boards wide, the outside teak and the inner walnut. The main body is teak.

It sounds like the consensus is to use separation boards. It presents the same problems as the picture frame in regards to fastners, maybe more so. Do you normally use a contrasting color?

Are the butt joints taboo because of the gaps required between boards?

Greg Di · 08-12-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bone Saw

I like the router over teh buiscuit joiner as there are many "position prohibitive" situations not so with the router, got this bit at woodcrafter, 1/4 slotting bit perfect for conceal locs.

I couldn't find a bit like that locally. That will save a lot of time. Thanks.

Bone Saw · 08-12-2008, 01:30 PM

picked it up at a local woodcrafter, it was a woodcrafter brand bit think it was like 14 or 15 bucks, used it on a bunch of comp and ipe, sweet bit to have weather in router in trimmer

neolitic · 08-12-2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redwood

I have a couple of biscuit joiners, but I don't think the blade is as thick as is required for the fastners. I'll look into that.

The picture frame would be 2 boards wide, the outside teak and the inner walnut. The main body is teak.

It sounds like the consensus is to use separation boards. It presents the same problems as the picture frame in regards to fastners, maybe more so. Do you normally use a contrasting color?

Are the butt joints taboo because of the gaps required between boards?

What about a diagonal?
Saves expansion worries even if
it adds to the framing a bit.
12"o.c. wouldn't be that much more
trouble than the extra for the
breaker boards?

Plate joiner was just a thought,
no idea what the kerf really is.

Those Woodcraft bits really
seem to be a bargain!
I've got several of the
flush pattern bits....so far
nothing but good things
to say about them.

RobertCDF · 08-12-2008, 02:06 PM

Hey Bone, have you thought of cleaning your computer? Or are you trying to see how much crap you can get all over it and it still work?

Bone Saw · 08-12-2008, 02:12 PM

believe it or not, that computer has fallen off a deck (approx 8') been kicked purposely numorous times, purposly dropped, thrown and stepped on and she just keeps working

redwood · 08-12-2008, 02:38 PM

Here is what we are working with on these decks. The project came from a architect and engineer. It has already been submitted for permits, so I don't have a lot of flexibility with framing changes. As submitted, redwood was the decking option, but that has changed to TT and joists have been changed to 16" O.C. from 24".

This drawing just shows the joists. No blocking is yet shown for the picture frame. Small squares are tubular steel columns.

Bone Saw · 08-12-2008, 03:03 PM

if you skew your decking 52deg +/-, and tighten up your joist o.c. to 10 and some change, 12's and 20's work out with nothing but little triangles for scrap

08-11-2008, 03:33 PM	#1
redwood View Profile redwood Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,271) Photos (0) Reviews (1) Projects (0) Toolbox (7) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpentry Contractor Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 1,271	Timbertech Hey guys I got a couple of questions for you. I've been building decks for over 30 years, originally almost all redwood, now mostly ipe. You can count on one hand how many composite decks we've done. Well I'm bidding on a 2000+ sq. ft. referall deck that the owner wants TT earthtone teak. Picture framed with teak then walnut. Using conceal lock fastners. My questions? One of the decks is 72' long, the other 64' long. Do you ever stagger joints, like we do with real wood, or do you normally use a perpendicular separation board? Is the separation board usually the same color or contrasting? Do you face screw the picture frame or do you still try to use the HFS brackets? How about steps, same question? Thanks __________________ Mark Los Gatos, CA www.creative-redwood-designs.com

08-11-2008, 04:37 PM	#2
BreyerConstruct View Profile BreyerConstruct Workin' Hard & Havin' Fun Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,739) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Workin' Hard & Havin' Fun Trade: Deck Designer/Builder Join Date: May 2006 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 1,739	Re: Timbertech Lemme answer a few: Face screw using Headcote's on outside & inside ends, and all steps. We've staggered joints, but butt boards look better, if the layout lends itself to it. Awesome stuff to work with. Figure $1 a sq. ft. for the clips, and a few x that for the increased labor. But, if you're comfortable with IPE, you'll be in a good position for this install. Look up a past thread of mine on installing this decking, there were a lot of good comments on installation tricks that some of the guys chipped in with! We'll use all matching decking... and sometimes a different color. Say, use the Teak for all horizontal surfaces, with the Walnut for the accent pieces, risers & fascia, etc. It can be a nice look, but run it by your client. I always offer to mix-n-match the colors for free, as kinda a "value added" piece. PS. Check your material numbers, as TT has gone thru several upcharges this year so far. Sounds like a heck of a project! Keep us posted. ~Matt __________________ Custom Deck Builder Deck Designer Lancaster Deck Builder Berks Deck Cleaning Breyer Construction & Landscape, LLC Facebook Page www.BreyerConstruction.com

08-11-2008, 05:56 PM	#3
Greg Di View Profile Greg Di The Deck Guy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,926) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity The Deck Guy Trade: Outdoor Design & Construction Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bergen County, NJ Posts: 2,926	Re: Timbertech Ditto what Matt said. I think using ConceaLocs is faster than face screwing to be honest-laborwise. I never, ever butt boards on a joist. Use a seam board. It's so much nicer looking and it's a great design feature. I'm doing a Teak/Walnut two tone job next week. Same as Matt, I don't charge extra for two tone, but I do charge for picture framing as it adds to my material and labor. It's easy to go overkill on it. Less is better, but enough contrast to make sure you did it on purpose and didn't run out a color! Anyplace you use a face screw on Earthwoods, you really need to predrill. I have not found any composite screw that doesn't look like hell on EW without a nice pre-drill. It's a pita to use HFS on the picture frame because you have rout the end of every board to do it. Talk about slowing down productivity. The face screws are not really noticeable. Don't gun them in. Gentle countersink is all you need. My cell # is on my profile on the "other site". Call me if you need more info. __________________ Your source for: BergenDECKS.com ::: Decks • Porches • Railings • Pergolas in Bergen County New Jersey Remodeling and Home Improvements in Bergen County \| EPA Approved Lead-Safe Contractor Techno Metal Post ::: Residential, Commercial and Industrial Helical foundation piles Follow us on: Facebook \| Twitter \| YouTube

08-12-2008, 03:53 AM	#5
redwood View Profile redwood Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,271) Photos (0) Reviews (1) Projects (0) Toolbox (7) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpentry Contractor Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 1,271	Re: Timbertech Thanks for the info guys. The deck is a residential hillside deck, utilizing steel columns. I have done larger decks, though not many. I'm also in the design process of another deck of similar size, only it will be ipe. I've gone back and read some of the excellent threads covering this topic. I'm kind of sports nut and the olympics really screw with my schedule. Damn Tivo! __________________ Mark Los Gatos, CA www.creative-redwood-designs.com Last edited by redwood; 08-12-2008 at 03:57 AM.

08-12-2008, 09:56 AM	#7
BuiltByMAC View Profile BuiltByMAC Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,019) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Construction Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,019	Re: Timbertech Believe me, it's on my wish list! Just haven't broken down and picked one up yet - the router does the job and it's in my shop already. One of these days... Mac

Analysis of New Contractors Insurance Program in CA

Customer Testimonials ? I'll take them if you aren't using the...

Greenlee Glo-Stix...

DeWalt Self-Level...

Timbertech

Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Re: Timbertech

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

Already Have an Account?

08-12-2008, 10:32 AM	#10
deckman22 View Profile deckman22 Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,501) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Deck Builder Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Austin, Tx. Posts: 1,501	Re: Timbertech I did one this spring that was 66' long, ran the decking away from the house to avoid butt joints or having to use seperation boards. I would use a seperation board before having butt joints on all that composite. The teak decking looks great picture framed with walnut, don't know about a double picture frame using teak too tho, maybe double walnut, but that's the customers call. I also always screw the steps. The company that makes headcoat screws makes some colored composite screws that work pretty good, if screwed down perfectly flush no predrill needed, but in it took only a frog's hair more to cause a mushroom. __________________ Deckman www.alscustomdecks.com

08-12-2008, 11:26 AM	#13
redwood View Profile redwood Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,271) Photos (0) Reviews (1) Projects (0) Toolbox (7) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpentry Contractor Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 1,271	Re: Timbertech I have a couple of biscuit joiners, but I don't think the blade is as thick as is required for the fastners. I'll look into that. The picture frame would be 2 boards wide, the outside teak and the inner walnut. The main body is teak. It sounds like the consensus is to use separation boards. It presents the same problems as the picture frame in regards to fastners, maybe more so. Do you normally use a contrasting color? Are the butt joints taboo because of the gaps required between boards? __________________ Mark Los Gatos, CA www.creative-redwood-designs.com

08-12-2008, 01:30 PM	#15
Bone Saw View Profile Bone Saw Charitable animal Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,509) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Charitable animal Trade: decks Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chester Co. PA Posts: 2,509	Re: Timbertech picked it up at a local woodcrafter, it was a woodcrafter brand bit think it was like 14 or 15 bucks, used it on a bunch of comp and ipe, sweet bit to have weather in router in trimmer

08-12-2008, 02:06 PM	#17
RobertCDF View Profile RobertCDF Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4,313) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (8) View All Activity Pro Trade: Custom deck builder Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 4,313	Re: Timbertech Hey Bone, have you thought of cleaning your computer? Or are you trying to see how much crap you can get all over it and it still work? __________________ Robert Shaw Colorado Springs Custom Decks Colorado Custom Decks Custom Composite Decks

08-12-2008, 02:12 PM	#18
Bone Saw View Profile Bone Saw Charitable animal Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,509) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Charitable animal Trade: decks Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chester Co. PA Posts: 2,509	Re: Timbertech believe it or not, that computer has fallen off a deck (approx 8') been kicked purposely numorous times, purposly dropped, thrown and stepped on and she just keeps working

08-12-2008, 03:03 PM	#20
Bone Saw View Profile Bone Saw Charitable animal Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,509) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Charitable animal Trade: decks Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chester Co. PA Posts: 2,509	Re: Timbertech if you skew your decking 52deg +/-, and tighten up your joist o.c. to 10 and some change, 12's and 20's work out with nothing but little triangles for scrap

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Timbertech Decking is getting stain spots from water	alvi	Decks & Fencing	16	10-10-2011 11:08 AM
Fiberon vs. TimberTech	MHC	Decks & Fencing	6	07-15-2008 09:45 AM
Timbertech XLM	Greg Di	Decks & Fencing	21	05-29-2008 05:55 PM
CorrectDeck CX vs Timbertech XLM	RaderBJ	Decks & Fencing	2	05-24-2008 10:49 AM
Timbertech Composite boards	plazaman	Decks & Fencing	29	05-20-2008 10:59 AM