Promoting Product Or Install System

Tom M

Ive battling some pricing issues. Work is sputtering and putting costs on jobs has been tougher. I could use the work and have priced out several this spring and summer that have not come in. I wonder if I am too high in cost and whats the breaking point. So I poked around between suppliers to check numbers and they all carry different product installed in different ways and the ones that carry similar are way out of sync with costs. I ve read all the other posts and have heard the feedback but it seems everyone is all over the place as well. Alcoa Oasis, Certinteed, Portico, Procell, Timberline, Trex and so on.........Too many unproven hidden fastener systems as well. So you guys who primarilay do decks sell on rough square foot or by stick? I try pricing by item list and find the paper work extensive. And all the numbers change again by crew performance. Im ready to start gun nailing this stuff to lower cost. The boards dont shrink other than cosmetic whats the penalty? Faster labor when there is budget concerns yet still offer a good product. What the popular thought on this?

John Hyatt

Man you are all over the place with questions. To start with are you a Deck Contractor? Ya know is this what you do for the money? Bad times and funky material is part of the deal Bro. John

Tom M

I dont do decks exclusively not like you advertise, but I do a couple a year as they surface none in the past year or so. Mostly cedar. All these latest systems are installed different and I havent had any with hidden fasteners. BRO. The territory is very competitive and supplier to supplier is almost 30%. Ive been questioning everything these days. I hate useing sqft numbers in bids yet when I putting quotes in that no one is moving on Im looking at all avenues of simplifying costs.

BreyerConstruct

Sq. Ft. is nice for a quick price... I've broken it down further to a sq. ft, linear ft. of rail & per step... then I look at the features, location, product,etc. of the job & start adjusting to get it more accurate.

For composites, look for ones you can easily sell- meaning they have features & benefits that make them unique. Moisture Shield, Procell, Correct Deck, all unique. TimberTech has great railings, Premier & NOvaline have some exciting options as well.
Look to set yourself out as unique, so you can't be lumped into the pot w/ everyone else. How about lighting?

I think you get the idea.
Don't stress out. Think things thru well. start improving your networking, and consider what improvements and repairs you can make @ home or your shop when you're slow, to speed you up when it's busy.

HTH,
~Matt

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John Hyatt

Mat that is such a soft aproach,, I respect that.

But hey, money is money, Tom if you cant make it in the market get the hell out of it.

Or dig in, if you want to do decks for a living or just to get you thru between jobs get out there and do them!! There is no telling what your area will go for or what you can give them. J.

BreyerConstruct

Great, now I'm going to get that "softie" reputation!


Honestly, sometimes you have to do whatever you can find to get thru. Personally, if you're going to de decks, be GOOD at them- obsess about them & do everything you can to get to know the different products & manufactures.

Chat later,
~Matt

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Tom M

Well

Tom M

Well this is why I posted to feel out the situation. I could be busier if I was working cheap. Ive been cutting it for 16 years on my own. This is by far the slowest I ve ever felt. Or maybe I was working cheaper. Correct Deck has not come across my been avaiable on my plate either. I was quoted 15 bucks per plank more for Timber Tech. Composite is a already a tough sell to people who have wood number in thier head from a few years back. And this isnt Oaklahoma either. My point was what is the most economical approach pushing a TimberTech plank and rail when A fiberon is so much cheaper. The customer sees the word composite what do they care.

dougchips

Send me a box and I will send you defective fiberon that is a few years old. YOU need to sell them on the difference.

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Tom M

So Doug you would put Fiberon on a Trex level, or to me a lower tier composite? The fiberon looks to me like the Portico. It also looks like Weather best or Epoch. I done several Timber Tech and I like the product alot but it is more expensive than the rest with field assembled rails. Again more labor. My thoughts about the hidden fastener thing is that the Timber Tech tongue and groove planks is more expensive but you get a hidden fastener look without expensive clips and labor process. I was kinda asking for an opinion or pros and cons to some of the product mentioned the EbTy thing looked easy but no one has them in my area and the thread reviews were negative.

BuiltByMAC

Once your handrail posts are installed, you can take measurements for the handrail sections and build them in your shop. Use ratchet straps to hold them together until you mount them between the posts. I don't find TT handrails to be considerably more labor than other composite handrail systems.

I'd have to chip in on the Eb-Ty thought with my own negative review. I used them once for an IPE deck and felt they were too flimsy to be a solid connector. The biscuit is bendable plastic and if you run the provided trim head screws just a tad deep, they pull through the biscuit, rendering the fastener useless.

A good argument for better, more expensive composite boards is longevity of the deck. Get people thinking long term. If they're buying a composite deck, they don't want to mess with it...ever. Get them thinking about how long they can use that deck with no sanding, sealing, staining and push the better boards so they won't be dealing with possible product failure down the road.

Quality materials and craftsmanship are how you can sell more expensive projects. You just need to work on finding the folks out there who'll pay for it. And figuring out how to find them is a whole 'nother thread (or three)!

Good luck,

Mac

Tom M

Thanks for the input here. The obvious pro and sell point is longevity for these composites. Ive pre fabbed a few rails in past and that worked out well. I will not look into the E-ty since everyone agrees on that.

dougchips

I will not install fiberon any more and I have never been a fan of trex. I use to be a fan of fiberon becuase of the price and buying on price bit me in the asss.

With time you might notice that a pre-grooved deck board is quicker to install than pre-driling and screwing the fiberon. Hidden fastners are a selling point, take some pictures of surface screwed decks and show them to your potential clients.

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BreyerConstruct

Fiberon decking... ok for a low budget. However it's about the same price as Trex or TT's twin finish, and maybe a bit more than Moisture Shield. It's not as good as Trex or TT, and it's nowhere near as good as MS. The only advantage is that they do have a hidden fastener system available. Negative there is that it's a re-badged Tigerclaw system, and while the clips are great, the screws suck.

One more thing, their railing is junk.

Ok,ok, one final thing. While they claim to be #2 in composite production (lots of private label??) The supply chain is thin, weak, and appears to be shrinking further.

Done ranting. :0

Try to sell products that are unique, and sell on value whenever you can!

~Matt

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Tom M

Never heard of moisture shield, the tiger claws look like the best so far and the new TimberTech colors are awesome. No responses on nailing in that decking huh. I mean if you had to keep an estimate down but hated to see a customer go treated lumber. No one would ring shank / gun nail this stuff in. Its not hidden but its the next best thing. Its fast. I never seen a TT deck nailed but I have seen a Trex one and there were no issues 3 years down the pipe.

BreyerConstruct

We run a Muro gun for screwing the boards down. It would be tough to beat with a nail gun. Also, nails can often bend, due to the density of the boards.

~Matt

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Tom M

Whats a Muro gun ----one of those stand up screw fed guns. I thought they were limited to certain types of fasteners only. Whats tough to beat the speed of the "Muro" or the nail gun.

lgoode

Some of my (admittedly biased) thoughts about hidden fasteners:
-our system for CorrectDeck and CorrectDeck CX uses clips a full 2" long. These are long enough to span butt joints, even with an angled installation. Plus they hide the joist.
-we developed the system with an overhang/undercut board design. That does two things: it prevents ice and water from building up in the groove in the board, and it makes room for the fastener to have a wide base. With a wide base as opposed to a T-shape, the clips don't fall twelve feet down as you're reaching for your cell phone.
-we use only stainless screws. This isn't true of all the systems. Stainless isn't magnetic. If it sticks to a magnet, don't use it.
-the screwheads are painted black, and use a #1 squaredrive. Two bits come in the bucket, and we buy the bits special with long narrow tips, so you can drive the screw either before or after the second board is in place (plus you can back screws out to replace or reposition a board).
-you can get the preloaded w/ screws, or without. You can (believe it or not) staple it down (7/16x2 staple). Darrin Fontana of Fontana Construction told me he and one crew member stapled down a 800 sf redeck job in one day. That's pretty good. Most people use it with the screws, but for the 10% that staple, they swear by it.
-we sell a router bit that routs our patented overhang/undercut groove in any board, so you can rout one edge of one of our classic boards to make a starter strip. That is good for picture framing a deck. We also offer Headcote painted screws to match our decking colors for screwing said starter strip down (or for stair treads).
-we're proud of our system, we began working on it 7 years ago and have been selling it for 5+. We've made some updates and improvements over the years (smaller gaps, preloaded screws, countersunk holes) but it's been a good system all along with very few problems or issues. You can use it with confidence. -Marty

SPCarpentry

Marty,

Just want to say that I received my promotional kit today. It's awesome I feel that it will help me show your companies quality product.

Like Tom M. I do only a couple of decks a year and I have never built one out of anything but wood. I have done a lot of research and I feel comfortable with CorrectDeck. By using one brand I hope that it will allow me to pinpoint my numbers so that I will have sollid numbers (like wood) when pricing jobs. I was asked to submit my first estimate using synthetic decking this summer and I was overwhelmed by all the different materials and costs. How was I to know what the homeowner would like? Was I going to have to give them 3 prices for 3 different price points? In the end they chose a contractor who sold them on Veranda At least now I will have some numbers to use with the next homeowner and I will know if it's in there budget before I go any further.

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RobertCDF

Might want to change your sig line if you start using Correct Deck

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Robert Shaw
Colorado Springs Custom Decks
Colorado Custom Decks
Custom Composite Decks