Positive Placement Nailers

KennMacMoragh

Sound advice, right now I'm more worried about money than my body, I can spend all my money on tools, go broke and starve to death, that's not healthy either. I have never had an elbow problem though, I hear whines all the time from other people, I've just never had that issue.

But I am wondering, have you looked in the Simpson book to see if you're even allowed to use the 2 1/2" positive placement nails for the holes that go through the joists? I have always thought they had to be 16d nails.

IHI

LOL, i thought i was hot chit when the palm nailers came out and "they worked" but still sucked, and to be honest they still get used to this day for those tight nooks and cranny's that it's impossible to get a heavy swing from the standard hammer. But one day while doing a garage there was a guy building a deck on site too, he seen me palm nailing away and walked over with his paslode PP nailer and said here, try this out....even donated nails to my cause. Soon as i got home i got on flea bay and searched/found the same Paslode PP nail gun and bought it for $100 including the ride. If anybody honestly believes they can bang out hangers by hand as fast as i or anybody else can with this nail gun, they're dillusional, we've "feild tested" ever cool tool vs the old way we used to do things and have never once been let down. I was installing hangers at a 2-3:1 vs hand nailing and 2.5-3.5 vs the palm nailer since the nails would'nt always stay centered on the magnet when trying to start them and drive them home.

Like everybody said though, the Paslode is heavy and bulky, it'll do 16"o.c. joist hangers/hurricane ties but it gets kinda snug depending on the angle your working from.....i eventually got tired of slinging all that weight around, and seen Bostich offered a gun that performed both framing gun duties AND PP duties with a simple tip change, PLUS they shot the same paper colleted i use in my cordless Paslodes and hosed Paslodes..so it seemed like a win/win right?? I bought 2 of the Bostich guns, the first job the one gun i had was constantly misfiring, got so fed up i threw it on the ground fromt he ladder and told the grunt to grab the other one. That one did'nt misfire, but 4 racks of joist nails into it, the fricken "finger/tip" for the PP broke off So switched tip from the gun i threw on the ground and later in the trash can and it's been working fine ever since. I would like to try the new Strap Shot gun though since it's smaller and appears like it'd get into tighter spots ALOT better??

We've been doing a azzload of decks and there is absolutely no way i'd build anything without some of the latest tools out since initally, sure they cost me money, but production is faster-which means more profits sooner, and secondly wear and tear on my guys is drastically cut down-which means more/faster production which means more profits sooner; and that is just the simple FACTS

Also, around here the composite decking has'nt caught on due to high price and lower middle class economics, so we build alot of PT decks...the OTHER tool i could'nt imagine how/why we did things the way we did before, and is a must in the arsenal....the Senco subfloor autofeeder screw gun!!!! No matter if my guys used the corded 3/8" corded drill, 3/8" or 1/2" cordless drill, or the impact drivers, whomever is weilding the autofeeder can sink (consitantly counter sink) the screws at a 6-9:1 ratio vs hand drilling. Some variables play into it but we'll line up all the decking and cut wedges and hammer them down a row back from the house to squeeze all the sections of decking together....we dont do butt ends since all this new/young lumber simply shrinks far too much and results in gaps-typically big gaps within a year, so we make "zones" or 10/12/14/16' full length boards, i wont use anything longer since shrinkage is too much. But once our "zones" are wedged tight we use the purple chaulk (basically baby powder with purple tint) so it blows away when the wind picks up and leavs no staining....then once the floor joista are all marked out i'll get one guy going on the screw gun and the rest of us will layout/set up the next section so it all goes seamless.

Sorry for the long post, i type like a secretary so they actually read longer than it takes to type

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KennMacMoragh

Hehe, I've gotten frustrated with them too. The time you spend trying to fix them can easily outweigh the time saved shooting in nails.

BuiltByMAC

I won't attempt to further convince you of the positive benefits of using a PP gun - however I will give you this information:

Click on this link: http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...rs/LUS-HUS.asp
Scroll down to code reports for LUS28Z,
Click on ESR2549 (here's a direct link if you want)
Note on page 4 of 10, Table 1 - Allowable Loads for the LU Series Joist Hangers
All LU hangers are specified for 10dx1 1/2" nails into the joists. By using 10dx2 1/2" nails, I'm actually overbuilding.

Regarding this post of yours:
Since LU26 hangers are specified for 10 nails per hanger (6 into the header, 4 through the joist), I'd say you seriously undernailed that deck. Hopefully, your liability insurance is up to date.

Mac

John Hyatt

Ken Mac , just because Man .

When your mean and lean you dont feel pain. The damage starts right away probley started with me real early sure we can do it, sure we dont whine, sure it feels good to get the thing up looking at the job thru the rear view and know you put it there with a lone star beer between your legs on a Friday and the truck running good.

But down the road, if you care about it, every time you swing that hammer,as good as you are with it, you are breaking /tearing that little fiber protecting your elbow joint. You wont feel it, in fact you wont feel it for a few years, but you will pay the price down the road in a big way if you dont work Smart.

I dont know why I try with you guys your not going to hear me anyway.

JonMon

IHI

They'll learn soon enough, i was indestructible too once, now i'm 34, 2 borken knees from accidents, and now both with arthritis due to hundreds of thousands of trips up and down ladders/doing misc work that requires up/down, two blown out shoulders from heavy humping of materials into place/previous years of weight lifting, and now i'm on arthritis meds for my shoulder, and am almost to the point a person could say i'm addicted to pain killers since without Darviset (sp?) i literally cannot work or do a fricken thing since the pain will not allow me to raise my right arm (my main/favorite arm) up 90* from my waist without binding up and shooting crazy pain straight to the brain

Any make no mistake since i started hiring guys, i've been called too leaniant since i buy the latest greatest things to try and save THEIR backs and THEIR azzes...mainly since i get more out of them per day, but also i would'nt wish this kind of physical beat down on anybody...all the old boys told me when i was younger, but i was too full of spunk to listen, now i'm 34 going on 64 from the way i feel and get around. Actually, i get a kick out of all the guys that say certain tools would slow them down, they can do it faster manually. This past week we took time off from our work to bail out another contractor buddy that lives down my street, he got in over his head on a big home additon and renovation so i told him we'd help erect and dry it in. This guy was set up like so many on here sould like, bare minimum tools, and after i started pulling out everything we bought for each phase he kept saying man, you got all the toys, and i'd just say, no, watch how fast this makes it go.....

To these "pureist" hey, go on back to hand sawing and hand nail everything then, tell me how much money your saving when it takes you 3-4 times as long to complete a project It takes budgeting to buy these time saving tools, but to try and shun them is just ridiculous.

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redwood

IHI, have that shoulder MRI'd. I had the same symptoms and I was on meds and exercize for 3 years before I got it MRI'd. I was in surgery the next week.

The rehab sucked, but I now have basically, pain free, full range of motion in that shoulder.

I'm 56, and have had both knees scoped. They are about ready for another go around. Both shoulders have been worked on, the elbows and back seem to respond to ibuprofin.

Save your bodies, pups, you will be glad you did.

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Mark
Los Gatos, CA
www.creative-redwood-designs.com

Warren

You guys are scarin me. I am 42 (43 next month) and have been doing mostly framing, for 25 years. Pretty healthy so far, but I work smarter every year. I have never hesitated to buy the tools that make the job safer and less physical. I don't know why anyone would do it any other way. It not only saves your body, but usually they pay for themselves in a short time.

IHI

Luckily my doctor is part of my personal life as well through our kids going to the same private school and he knows i never see him until it's too late since like most of us, i try to grunt things out as i hate whiners and puzzy's...though now i'm paying the price for being so manly LMFAO!!! We agreed i'd give physical theropy 30 days and see how i felt, I went 3 times per week, 30 mintues per session, did the stuff they wanted me to do at home since i figured they know best and i need to get back to normal ASAP and it'd be a better option than the 6-8 week downtime they told me of IF i needed surgery. A month went by and things were no different, i even stopped taking the meds for 2 weeks to really highlight just how bad my shoulder was without the pills to take the edge off.

Finally they ordered an MRI, and just like we all agreed prior, nothing was broken and all it showed was just severe tendonitus which they told me nothing could be done but maintain the PT regimon and "take it easy" So i'm just waiting to close this season out and get into snow removal mode and really go after the doing nothing for 5 months other than shifting from drive to reverse and hoping the shoulder comes around My wife and doctor both want me to get cordisone shots, i'm deathly afraid of needles and when the doc suggested it i just told him, you bring a needle near me and i'll promise you'll be in more pain than i am now So we'll see what happens i guess, nother month-month and a half and i'll shut down operations....i dont work when snow season starts since lately we get hammered with snow/ice and jobs i "figured" for certain amounts of time end up taking 3x's as long....so i just pass them along to the next guy.

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IHI

Unfortunately...or fortuantely depending on how a person looks at it, alot of guys just dont see it that way, they're so caught up in trying to save pennies they cannot see the big picture.

Take roofing for example, freinds/family/other contractor buddies always flip me chit about being "to easy on my guys" and "let them do it, that's what your paying them for" because I'll rent forktrucks/skytraks to lift everything upto the roof so there is ZERO humping of anything up and down a ladder other than their hand tools, i just laugh because I know that $60-150 i spend on renting of this equipment actually MAKES me money since #1 i figure it into the cost of the job and #2 nobody on my crew is tired/sore/worn out before the job even begins so they ALL have FRESH BACKS from the word go....and they recoup my inital investment within the first couple hours.

I think it's all just a state of mind, lots of old times, lots of stubborn-ness of being stuck in "the way we've always done it", luckily growing up with my grandfather into the business, he was a tool whore and if there was something money could buy to make the job FASTER/EASIER he bought it and i've carried the torch from there and have NEVER regretted it!! It's a think rope between stubborn and stupid

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redwood

IHI, I'm very familiar with shoulder tendinitis, as well. While rehabing my right shoulder, I started using my left arm. Tendinitis set in and it may have actually been more painfull then the torn rotator cuff. Luckily it went away after a month or so.

I hate needles, as well, but I have had my share of cortisone shots. Some did great work, others, there was very minimal improvement. It did not help the rotator cuff, but it did help the tendonitis and the plantar fascitus. The shoulder shots were not bad at all. The foot shot was a temporary killer, but also had the most impact.

By the way, I was unable to really work for much longer then 6-8 weeks, after surgery. I had physical therapy every other day for 3 months. That got me to full motion, but no strength. It really seemed to take almost a year before I was comfortable. Luckily, I was just supervising a apartment complex exterior replacement for about 2 years, at that time.

I still feel tightness in my shoulder, now, 10 years after the surgery. But no pain to think of.

Good Luck

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Mark
Los Gatos, CA
www.creative-redwood-designs.com

carpentershane

After hearing these accounts what little hesitation I had about buying a PP nailer has evaporated.

jhark123

I've got to chime in here and suggest the paslode. It is heavy, but it is a tank! You definatley want the 2 1/2" capacity if you are doing a lot of joist hangers.

KennMacMoragh

I notice it says:
"10d commons into the joist"
That's why I'm wondering if the 2 1/2" positive placement nails would be up to code for that.

I know the benefits of those nailers. I just couldn't see buying one to build a few decks, it probably would not pay for itself.

Those weren't the kind of hangers I used, they only took 8 nails.

Edit: Just noticed you use the LU, I used the LUS. For the LU's you have to use 1 1/2" nails into the joists, it requires more nails also. I was talking about the LUS's which are designed to go through the joist and into the header.

Inner10

Lads, I did a rather large system for a facial reconstructive surgeon and he explained to me that your shoulder is the worst joint to mess up. Knees are cheap and easy to replace shoulders arn't.

If someone is boasting that they can hammer as fast as an air nailer they are either being pig-headed or too cheap to buy a nailer.

Years ago when all I did was grunt work I can remember the feeling of a ice pick in my elbow the entire day, then I got a stiletto and rapidly the pain went away...composite/fiberglass handled hammers = pain.

KennMacMoragh

I am 34 too, I've yet to feel any kind of wear and tear on my body. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe it's because I've been watching my health. Some guys can take the abuse for a long time, some can't.

loneframer

Ken, at 34, I hadn't yet felt the repercussions of 16 years of framing in the Northeast climate. We hand nailed everything for the first 2 or 3 years, until we saw the benefits of air-nailing. We never had any type of lift until I was 12 years into it. Mostly due to restrictive lot sizes in a shore community.
I have reached a point now, at 44, where all the abuse has had a cumulative effect on my body and all the minor injuries over the years have come home to roost. I guess when the next building boom comes along, I'll be the D-bag boss that does nothing but layout and point fingers. At least now I have an understanding of why things were the way they were. Wish I would have listened to his warnings about working smarter and not harder.

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fast fred

it went from nailers to pain and suffering?????

my advice buy the nailer any of them and streach and/or yoga four times a week and drink a half gallon or more of water a day. You'll be amazed at the results.

loneframer

There is a direct correlation between the two. Anyone who doesn't know that, hasn't been doing it long enough.

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deckman22

You got that right.

To you young bucks out there, take it from us 'ol guys & save your body, you only get one.

If you are using an estwing or similar steel handled hammer, throw it away, it's a big reason you get that elbow pain.

To you deck builders who work by themselves, you are being foolish tearing up your body to save a few bucks, helpers are cheap.

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