notched railing posts - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

world llc · 10-11-2009, 05:04 PM

alot of the old PT decks i see have notched in posts, but i have always been told it is not allowed... anyone know when this code took effect?

i personally like the look of the notched 4x4, but i guess it's not as safe

PA woodbutcher · 10-11-2009, 07:15 PM

Everything that I have done and had inspected passed no problem. Did one for a code enforcement officer at his place 2 years ago and he had no objections.

TBFGhost · 10-11-2009, 07:24 PM

Thoery is, if you take away the material it is now not as strong...I guess someone was taking too much off and something happened.I I haven't done a deck in about a year now, but I would only take off 1/2 inch anyway.

**BuiltByMAC** · 10-11-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by world llc

notched in posts, but i have always been told it is not allowed... anyone know when this code took effect?

Told by whom?

Specifically, the only code pertaining to a handrail post is that it must withstand 200 lbs. of side pressure. Local building departments may have their own additional set of standards, though. I've got new requirements for handrail posts that are not specifically addressed in the IRC.

Having said that, notching your handrail post will significantly diminish it's strength. You also increase the chance for a a split to start at the notch.

Mac

KennMacMoragh · 10-12-2009, 12:13 AM

Who has ever gotten a permit for building a deck? Do you really have to worry? I'm pretty sure you still get the required 200 lbs of strength with a notched railing, as I have seen them a lot. They have more play in them if you walk up to the railing and shake it, but who ever does that?

jaros bros. · 10-12-2009, 06:47 AM

Notching out significantly weakens the post and that is why it isn't allowed. SYP grading allows for quite a bit of angle with the grain so notching it opens it up to splitting the post.

**BuiltByMAC** · 10-12-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennMacMoragh

Who has ever gotten a permit for building a deck? Do you really have to worry?

That's an interesting mindset. You don't spend much time in Decks and Fencing, do you?

Mac

Willie T · 10-12-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennMacMoragh

Who has ever gotten a permit for building a deck? Do you really have to worry? I'm pretty sure you still get the required 200 lbs of strength with a notched railing, as I have seen them a lot. They have more play in them if you walk up to the railing and shake it, but who ever does that?

I've read a lot of rather surprising statements made by pros here, but I think you are now way ahead of whoever is in second place. Someone tell you these things were simply decorative?

DecksEtc · 10-12-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennMacMoragh

Who has ever gotten a permit for building a deck? Do you really have to worry? I'm pretty sure you still get the required 200 lbs of strength with a notched railing, as I have seen them a lot. They have more play in them if you walk up to the railing and shake it, but who ever does that?

Are you on crack???

Framer53 · 10-12-2009, 11:37 AM

I built a deck at my house this summer without a permit.
That being said, you guys do know that in parts of the country permits aren't necessary, and if they are required. the BI doesn't look at it real close.

JonM · 10-12-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennMacMoragh

Who has ever gotten a permit for building a deck? Do you really have to worry? I'm pretty sure you still get the required 200 lbs of strength with a notched railing, as I have seen them a lot. They have more play in them if you walk up to the railing and shake it, but who ever does that?

Hope you have a good lawyer...

Willie T · 10-12-2009, 12:15 PM

Can anyone tell me why it seems to be that despite all the statements on this forum about "The Code" being no more than a guideline for the barest of minimums in sturdiness and safety, people who build without permits don't even seem to want to build their projects to that lowest of all standards?

Now, I can fully understand not wanting to line the city's pockets by buying a right to build on your own property. But that's not what I'm talking about. My puzzlement is over people just throwing good common sense construction methods and procedures out the window simply because no one is going to drive out and check their work.

We talk a lot about "hacks" here. To me, this is the epitome of being a hack.

Clemens · 10-12-2009, 04:19 PM

Can't believe some of the statements.
Residential railing has to withstand a 200 lbs of pressure at any given point. They do tests at 2 1/2 times that rate (500 lbs)
Even a solid 4x4 bolted ( 2x 1/2") doesn't reach the rating. The problem is not the skirt / post connection, it is the connection between the skirting and the joist ( nailed into the end cut of the joist) There is not much force needed to pull this board out.
Simpson Deck Tension tie (DTT2Z) connection between the joist and skirt will pass this test. I joined a few weeks back a seminar of Simpson Ties (highly recommended) and they where not sure if this will be required yet in the 2009 IRC this fall. But we have a few counties (like Fairfax Virginia) that already do.
Notching a 4x4 halfway will reduce it strength by 70%.
If you like the look and you don't pull a permit or you think you don't have an inspection that that's up to you.
Never understood, why do more work (notching) to make it weaker.
Clemens

Chris G · 10-12-2009, 05:16 PM

The way you construct your top rail and tie it back to house will effect railing strength far more than the way you connect the bottom of you posts. If it can't be tied back, then lots of blocking at the bottom helps.

John Hyatt · 10-12-2009, 06:51 PM

YO Clem Mon, I bid a fence repair with the 4x4 corner posts daped in1 1/2'' on both sides of the 4x4, this relates to a 2x2,all the others were 1 1/2''.

This is the good part>> the ho wanted it that way said it looked Finished<< The JonMon showed Major restraint, but not on the Bid for replacement. FineHome Bulding had a frount cover deck that was done the same way on a 6x6 post holding up a two story deck a few years ago no lie! the post was daped out for a double 2x12 rim joists. Total Stupid and on the cover. J.

world llc · 10-12-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clemens

Can't believe some of the statements.
Residential railing has to withstand a 200 lbs of pressure at any given point. They do tests at 2 1/2 times that rate (500 lbs)
Even a solid 4x4 bolted ( 2x 1/2") doesn't reach the rating. The problem is not the skirt / post connection, it is the connection between the skirting and the joist ( nailed into the end cut of the joist) There is not much force needed to pull this board out.
Simpson Deck Tension tie (DTT2Z) connection between the joist and skirt will pass this test. I joined a few weeks back a seminar of Simpson Ties (highly recommended) and they where not sure if this will be required yet in the 2009 IRC this fall. But we have a few counties (like Fairfax Virginia) that already do.
Notching a 4x4 halfway will reduce it strength by 70%.
If you like the look and you don't pull a permit or you think you don't have an inspection that that's up to you.
Never understood, why do more work (notching) to make it weaker.
Clemens

i thought the rim board had to be screwed with 3" screws?

anyway, my question is when, what year, did they say no notching.

also to mac: i heard it from other contractors, not a code book, so i am assuming they know what they are talking about... however i would take your expert advise, as this is your trade, over theirs.

and if that's the case... then my question is irrelivant

redwood · 10-12-2009, 08:37 PM

I don't think that notching railing posts is in the code book, as Mac says.

I guess that it all depends on how deep you notch the post, as what is left is what your actual post is. Notch 1 1/2" out, and you are basically using a heavy 2x4 post.

Notching is also a place for moisture to sit and rot out your wood.

Winchester · 10-12-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clemens

Can't believe some of the statements.
Residential railing has to withstand a 200 lbs of pressure at any given point. They do tests at 2 1/2 times that rate (500 lbs)
Even a solid 4x4 bolted ( 2x 1/2") doesn't reach the rating. The problem is not the skirt / post connection, it is the connection between the skirting and the joist ( nailed into the end cut of the joist) There is not much force needed to pull this board out.
Simpson Deck Tension tie (DTT2Z) connection between the joist and skirt will pass this test. I joined a few weeks back a seminar of Simpson Ties (highly recommended) and they where not sure if this will be required yet in the 2009 IRC this fall. But we have a few counties (like Fairfax Virginia) that already do.
Notching a 4x4 halfway will reduce it strength by 70%.
If you like the look and you don't pull a permit or you think you don't have an inspection that that's up to you.
Never understood, why do more work (notching) to make it weaker.
Clemens

Sometimes I notch, most of the time I don't. It really depends on what the HO wants. I always use HTT16 tension ties. My suppliers still don't stock those new deck post ties, either.

SLSTech · 10-12-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by world llc

i thought the rim board had to be screwed with 3" screws?

anyway, my question is when, what year, did they say no notching.

also to mac: i heard it from other contractors, not a code book, so i am assuming they know what they are talking about... however i would take your expert advise, as this is your trade, over theirs.

and if that's the case... then my question is irrelivant

Fairfax Virginia Deck Guide; Version: 2006.1, revised: 5/8/08

Prescriptive Residential Wood - Deck Construction Guide

Based on the 2006 International Residential Code
AKA --- DCA6 - 2008

No notching - screws through the rim board, etc...