Hidden Fasteners - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Jaketoo · 04-05-2008, 01:21 PM

I am planning on building a deck with 1x4 IPE, fastened with EBTYs. I have always told customers that I don't trust any of the hidden fasteners, because I have never heard anyone say they are good. I have heard guys say they are to much trouble. I have also heard of at least one guy going back a year later and screwing all the decking down, because decking was "moving, and curling" (not sure what brand of fasteners either guy used).
The deck I am going to build now needs to be Top Notch. It is going on a super nice house. Slate roof, copper gutters, red cedar sidewall shingles, etc. etc. This house was built by the Silva Brothers (seen on This Old House). The craftsmenship on this house is flawless. The attention to detail through the house is like no house I have ever been in. The customer wants the deck built as well as the house. He really wants to match the red cedar sidewall shingles.
I suggested the WOODWAY railing system. Cedar LAIR HILL rail panels, cedar post sleeves etc. We are going to try staining some IPE to see if it will look close to the cedar. Homeowner does not want cedar decking, because a friend had bad splinter problems with theirs. I am also going to plug all face screws. I don't want any fasteners exposed.
The way I see it, hidden fasteners are a must on this job. So I will probably grab the EBTYs because they have been around awhile, and it seems like a good system.
I am going to frame the floor 12" on center, and make the stair treads 14" VS. the standard 10.5". The stairs are 12' wide.
I would really appreciate any suggestions or comments on building a Top Notch deck, and anyones experience with EBTYs or any other Hidden Fastener. Thanks, From MA.

Bone Saw · 04-05-2008, 01:34 PM

ebty is pure rubbish
tiger claw, deckmaster all else is crap, I do agree for the ultimate in form and function screwed and plugged fo sure

Jaketoo · 04-05-2008, 01:48 PM

Wow, I'm really surprised to hear that. Glad I asked. I will check out the ones you suggested. I figured IPE was to hard to use with Tiger Claw, because from what I remember you have to drive them in vs. biscuit cutting.

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-05-2008, 02:30 PM

Jake,

grab an EB-TY biscuit and flex it between your fingers. If it has that much play with just your hand strength, what hope does it have to keep warping IPE boards in place?

Another self test, take the EB-TY biscuit and run a screw through the hole as per instructions. See for yourself how easy is it to run the screw's trim head all the way through the hole, rendering the biscuit useless. You might have more success using a washer head screw but that makes the screw head very visible between boards.

Just 'cause EB-TY's been around for a while don't make it the best product out there...look at TREX.

Hopefully Hyatt will chime in with his experience with IPE and hidden fasteners...

Mac

Mitch M · 04-05-2008, 03:01 PM

I have a client who wants his deck rebuilt as a result of a tree falling on it and destroying about half of it. He decided that if he was going to do that much work he might as well make some changes now. It was also suggested hidden fasteners. One guy told him that they were very expensive. I prefer to face screw it with stainless steel. But how do you plug it and with what? Also if he does decide he would rather use hidden, how do you replace a bad or damaged board later?

buildenterprise · 04-05-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch M

I have a client who wants his deck rebuilt as a result of a tree falling on it and destroying about half of it. He decided that if he was going to do that much work he might as well make some changes now. It was also suggested hidden fasteners. One guy told him that they were very expensive. I prefer to face screw it with stainless steel. But how do you plug it and with what? Also if he does decide he would rather use hidden, how do you replace a bad or damaged board later?

I figure 60 cents per square foot for color-matched stainless screws and $1.10 per square foot for hidden fasteners. To replace a damaged board means running the circ saw lengthwise down the board to remove it, then face screwing the new one in place.
Keep in mind the deck will need some extra bracing with the HFS since they don't attach as securely, allowing movement in the structure.

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-05-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buildenterprise

then face screwing the new one in place.

Unless you have access to the underside of the deck - if yes, then have someone stand on the replaced board while you run some screws up through the joist top into the bottom of the replaced board - keeps the hidden fastener look going...

If you work solo, use a strap threaded through decking to hold downward pressure on board while you screw it in place.

Mitch, regarding plugs, you use the same material for the plug as the decking. Drill a hole 1/4" - 3/8" deep into the deck board just a thin hair smaller than the diameter of the plug, run a screw down to the framing, drop glue in hole, tap plug into hole, when glue dries, sand plug to match height of decking.

Mac

RobertCDF · 04-05-2008, 07:46 PM

I would look at one of the undermount style of hidden fastener if you dont go with plugged. The deckmaster still gives you 2 screws into each board and does a very good job of adding strength.

Jaketoo · 04-07-2008, 02:23 PM

Thanks for all the info. It looks like I'm going to use the Powder Coated Deckmaster System. If anyone else has any experience with any HFS please let me know what you think. Otherwise I will be back in a few weeks to tell you all how Deckmaster worked for me.

redwood · 04-07-2008, 02:43 PM

I've built a ton of ipe decks and I have settled on the colored Headcote trim screws.

What has been mentioned regarding the ebty is also a problem with ipe clips. They do have a ipe clip extreme or something like that. It contains a SS plate in it, so that might work.

My experience is that the ipe moves enough that the gaps between boards is not consistant. This has not been a problem with face screwing with the trim screws. They are really not very noticable when using the colored heads.

I've used the deckmaster system with redwood 2x6, but I shudder to think of using it on the thinner ipe and the predrilling that is required.

You will be really hardpressed to get ipe to stain anywhere near a cedar color. It is just a much darker wood. I've tried bleaching it, like you can do with softwoods, but with no success.

Jaketoo · 04-07-2008, 07:15 PM

I am worried about the screws getting a good bite on the decking. I do like that they go in at an angle though. Normally I would try and talk the homeowner out of using any kind of HFS, but this is a special deck. This is the kind of customer I have always wanted to work for. Cost is not important to him he just wants the very best of everything. He really appreciates fine craftsmenship.
Maybe I will see if I can get my hands on 1 piece of the Deckmaster and give it a try, before ordering 3 boxes for over 900.00
Doesn't the liquid nail help hold things together? I am really worried about using any HFS. What is the worst thing that could happen? If boards start to move and come loose I suppose I could go back and face screw the whole thing. It's only 18x18.
I am looking at a picture of a Diamond Decking ipe deck and it looks a lot like cedar. I am glad you warned me about ipe being darker though. I have never used ipe. I will make sure I get a sample first. Any suggestions for hard decking to match cedar?
Anyone ever used Garapa Gold? "a light yellow to golden brown, dense, fine grain hardwood"? One supplier recommended this. It cost 1.49 per Lin'. The ipe is 1.99 per Lin'.

RobertCDF · 04-07-2008, 11:27 PM

I used the deckmaster and if you dont have access to below you are going to want a right angle impact driver. It will save you trust me. And if you need a sample I still have a couple of sticks left in the garage (about 3 years old) so they may have changed some, but I doubt it. Toss me a couple bucks to cover shipping and your address and you can have 2 sticks.

MartyCD · 04-08-2008, 11:15 AM

Is there no chance of these people going with a composite? We, among others, do a 4" width that might fit the look and includes an HFS.
I did a Deckmaster deck back in 2001, and immediately started working on the Fastenator... I agree with Roberts comments about the angle driver. Add gel kneepads and a wide assortment of stepladders, clamps, and assistants to stand on boards to the list. And Advil.

Jaketoo · 04-08-2008, 03:13 PM

Thanks for the sample offer Robert. I will see if I can find some locally first. I saw something similar to Deckmaster at Moores Lumber today. Anyone ever used Shadow Master HFS (I think that's what it's called).
As far as composite goes Marty, the homeowner is actually willing to consider it. I didn't think he would.
I am taking a ride up to N.H. tomorrow morning to visit Selectwood. I understand they are a big decking supplier. They are also .30 less per Lin' ($480-savings) on the ipe. I will get samples of everything I can.
Hey Marty I just noticed your not far from where I live. You must have a website. I will take a look.

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-08-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaketoo

Anyone ever used Shadow Master HFS (I think that's what it's called).

If it's actually Shadoe Track you're talking about, run far, far away. That stuff is similar to the Grabber Deckmaster in shape but a far lower quality. Like drywall metal corner stuff...

Mac

Jaketoo · 04-09-2008, 07:37 PM

I think I am going to do 5/4 x 4 ipe screwed and plugged. I like this stuff, it seems like it will be less likely to cup or curl then anything else. I think screwing and plugging will be a lot of work, but worth the trouble. I will coat all sides of decking with penetrating oil before installing. It looks like I can get all 18' + lengths. No joints.
Anyone see any reason why I should not build deck this way?

redwood · 04-09-2008, 08:39 PM

No, that way is fine. However, I would, if possible, show the customer, face screwed ipe, with the brown headcote trim head screws counter sunk into the decking. They are hardly noticable and a hell of a lot cheaper then plugging, which if not done just right, is just as noticable or more.

Greg Di · 04-09-2008, 09:59 PM

Fastenmaster I.Q. Clips.

google it and you'll find a lengthy thread by yours truly.

They are easy, but time consuming to install, but...They are bombproof.

deckman22 · 04-09-2008, 10:29 PM

I agree with Mark, go with the brown headcoats. They look really good & the cost would be a good bit less than plugs. I wouldn't worry to much about the 5/4 ipe cupping only the 1x material cups if the deck is low the ground & no ventilation.

Jaketoo · 04-10-2008, 12:44 PM

Greg, I googled Fastenmaster and read a story about squeaking. The lady doesn't need her doorbell anymore because she can hear people coming. Are these the same clips you are talking about?
Also, don't all metal fasteners eventually stain wood? Even stainless steel? What about water penetrating around screws. We have tough winters around hear. Most people don't shovel off their decks.
I know you will see plugs, but wouldn't that look good?
Redwood, you said they need to be done just right. Is it difficult to do them just right? I know it's a lot of work, but wouldn't this be a top notch deck? It would be built like a piece of furniture.
I don't plan on building many decks like this, but I want to build this deck the best way I can. It will be a show piece for a perfectionist who is wealthy and probably has wealthy friends. You never know, it could lead to building a spectacular ocean front home for the customer or one of his friends. Maybe I'm being silly, but you never know.
If cost did not matter, and any of you wanted to build the ultimate deck, how would you build it?