Freestanding Deck Footings on a Newer Construction Home - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

crazyson2001 · 08-25-2009, 09:26 PM

I looked at a deck job at a relatively new home the other day. It is a brick veneer house, full basement, deck would be about 20" off the ground at the house, increasing to ~30" at the far edge of the new deck. Homeowner says the house was completed in November 2008.

Because of the brick veneer, I'm immediately thinking freestanding deck. My concern however is the footings near the house and potentially placing them into the over-excavation area of the basement. If the house was completed in November 2008. Based on that completion date, I'm guesstimating the excavation was backfilled sometime around July 2008.

Do you think 13 months is enough time to let the backfill settle? I'm thinking no, but would like some feedback. Just need to know if I need to factor some extra deep footings to get to virgin soil into my bid. The homeowner also has a 5 or 10 year waterproofing guarantee on the foundation walls, so I would like to stay away from them if possible. I don't want to be the guy that digs next to the foundation and then they have a leak, and I get blamed for voiding their warranty.

Also thinking I should try to max out the cantilever at the house so I can keep the footings as far as possible from the over-dig area. How far do you normally cantilever to get around this?

Thanks guys. Normally I attach a ledger to the house or the house is old enough that I'm less concerned with potential settling.

oldfrt · 08-25-2009, 09:32 PM

What's your location?
How deep do footing have to be?

crazyson2001 · 08-25-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfrt

What's your location?
How deep do footing have to be?

I'm in Michigan.....Footing needs to be 42" deep in this neck of the woods.

**ChrWright** · 08-25-2009, 09:37 PM

I wouldn't risk it. Getting to undisturbed earth is going to be mighty deep.

Why not ledger to the brick?

Greg Di · 08-25-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyson2001

I looked at a deck job at a relatively new home the other day. It is a brick veneer house, full basement, deck would be about 20" off the ground at the house, increasing to ~30" at the far edge of the new deck. Homeowner says the house was completed in November 2008.

Because of the brick veneer, I'm immediately thinking freestanding deck. My concern however is the footings near the house and potentially placing them into the over-excavation area of the basement. If the house was completed in November 2008. Based on that completion date, I'm guesstimating the excavation was backfilled sometime around July 2008.

Do you think 13 months is enough time to let the backfill settle? I'm thinking no, but would like some feedback. Just need to know if I need to factor some extra deep footings to get to virgin soil into my bid. The homeowner also has a 5 or 10 year waterproofing guarantee on the foundation walls, so I would like to stay away from them if possible. I don't want to be the guy that digs next to the foundation and then they have a leak, and I get blamed for voiding their warranty.

Also thinking I should try to max out the cantilever at the house so I can keep the footings as far as possible from the over-dig area. How far do you normally cantilever to get around this?

Thanks guys. Normally I attach a ledger to the house or the house is old enough that I'm less concerned with potential settling.

Definitely a valid concern that crops up frequently.

Keep the footings as far as you can from the building, but there's only so far you can go of course.

Best solution is to dig down as deep as the basement footing and pour a tall footing. You'll want a backhoe for this.

Greg Di · 08-25-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrWright

Why not ledger to the brick?

You cannot attach to a brick veneer as the veneer is not structural. Deck MUST be freestanding.

oldfrt · 08-25-2009, 09:44 PM

Or dig to foundation footing and piggy back off footing with piers.
Those footings have to be on virgin soil.
Although you'd have to contend with any footing drains.

I vote to go through brick,less hastle.

**ChrWright** · 08-25-2009, 09:49 PM

Digging that deep isn't practical over a basement foundation--unless you're building at a walkout.

What about this:
http://www.deckbracket.com/

Remove a section of brick, install the bracket, and then re-brick and seal up to the bracket.

BCConstruction · 08-25-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

You cannot attach to a brick veneer as the veneer is not structural. Deck MUST be freestanding.

I dont understand this. I know they say you cant do it over here but what is the reason for this? 99% of homes in the UK are brick and there's zero issue with connecting to the brick as all forces are then moved into the footings/foundation. The brick in the UK is only a skin just like it is over here also. I have never seen one wall fail because of it being attacted to the brick wall. I guess if the wall was not built correctly then there could be a problem.

oldfrt · 08-25-2009, 09:58 PM

Fire escapes are attached to brick.
Since all the force is down,why couldn't it be attached ?

Check with your building Dept.

IHI · 08-25-2009, 10:59 PM

What about having a soil sample done and compaction test, we've had to do that a few times and it's spendy $500 for each test, but they tell you how strong it is and give you a footing size to exceed the weights of what the deck will see, so if you can imagine a what would normally take a 8" sonotube now having a 36" footing base to disperse the load over a large area for minimal impact.

Or they may in fact want you to overdig the footing hole and then your brining in a mini ex with a tamper plate and packing it down deep in the hole and going from there, but a soil compaction test will basically tell you the path to go, only downfall, explaining to the HO's the reasoning for them to spend this extra money vs the low ball bidder that will be considerably lower fora wham bam thank you mama deck

RobertCDF · 08-25-2009, 11:05 PM

Brick veneer done properly will have a void between it and the house... Ledger done properly will be tight to the house... see a problem yet?? Sucking the ledger in tight will buckle the veneer and compromise the brick possibly making them fall on the heads of the homeowners. Of course this situation only applies if you did it "right" and that would mean using bolts long enough to get to the house rim.

The problem with going right to only the brick would be the only thing keeping the brick to the house is the metal tie off wires through out the project. When you start pulling on that (think a deck with a bunch of drunk people) swaying, rocking, etc, etc you will snap the tie wires bringing the deck down and the bricks down on the heads of the party goers.

Sometimes a building department does not even know what they are doing. Just because someone somewhere can do this or that does not really make it the smart structural way to do something.

Personally I would cant it about 3' (as long as the deck is larger than 8'). One way to test the soil to find out if it has settled enough is to take a soaker hose and lay it out where you want your footings. Turn it on for 1-2 hours 2-3 times a day for a couple of days. Water will make the ground settle VERY well. If it settles and a trench is appearing then the ground is not settled enough.

Alwaysconfusd11 · 08-25-2009, 11:14 PM

Would Heli-Piles be cost effective?

Greg Di · 08-25-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertCDF

Brick veneer done properly will have a void between it and the house... Ledger done properly will be tight to the house... see a problem yet?? Sucking the ledger in tight will buckle the veneer and compromise the brick possibly making them fall on the heads of the homeowners. Of course this situation only applies if you did it "right" and that would mean using bolts long enough to get to the house rim.

The problem with going right to only the brick would be the only thing keeping the brick to the house is the metal tie off wires through out the project. When you start pulling on that (think a deck with a bunch of drunk people) swaying, rocking, etc, etc you will snap the tie wires bringing the deck down and the bricks down on the heads of the party goers.

Sometimes a building department does not even know what they are doing. Just because someone somewhere can do this or that does not really make it the smart structural way to do something.

Personally I would cant it about 3' (as long as the deck is larger than 8'). One way to test the soil to find out if it has settled enough is to take a soaker hose and lay it out where you want your footings. Turn it on for 1-2 hours 2-3 times a day for a couple of days. Water will make the ground settle VERY well. If it settles and a trench is appearing then the ground is not settled enough.

Thank you, Bobby.

With respect to ignorant building departments...I just informed and inspector the other day that you can't use wedge anchors for any type of shear load. He had no idea. Really...scary to think what he may have passed during his inspections because he was ignorant.

I use the Hilit HY-20 epoxy bolting system a lot to fasten ledgers direct to CMU foundations. No building inspector has ever seen it, heard of it or knows what it does. Whenever I show them how it works, they are mystified by it like they saw a UFO.

BCConstruction · 08-26-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

Thank you, Bobby.

With respect to ignorant building departments...I just informed and inspector the other day that you can't use wedge anchors for any type of shear load. He had no idea. Really...scary to think what he may have passed during his inspections because he was ignorant.

I use the Hilit HY-20 epoxy bolting system a lot to fasten ledgers direct to CMU foundations. No building inspector has ever seen it, heard of it or knows what it does. Whenever I show them how it works, they are mystified by it like they saw a UFO.

This is the problem over here. The building inspectors don't have a clue 95% of the time. I have been told i cant use copper because it's not allowed and no no reply as to why but then i show him the copper pipes inside the gas fire and oven they are also copper and not tinned, He has no reply.

They also told me to cut a waste pipe at a 90 when exiting. I told him that i don't have to do that because there's no traps. He just said it has to be done on all sinks. Then i ask him why they ask to do this and he has no idea so i have to explain to him about traps and vacuums!

Was also told when i built a bar in the city that it had to be above fload level which was 15ft. I just laughed and said of course it does mate. Then 30 mins later he tells me that we need flood doors 15ft high on the doors and windows to stop water for getting in the building when it floods. I then asked him about the services and how they are modified to stop water from backing up into the building and he looked at me with a blank stare.

Building inspectors need to learn the trade they are telling you about before they tell you it's wrong.

I just still cant understand the thinking of not being able to attact to the wall. I have helped build 2000-3000sq/ft decks on bars and clubs before and all were attached to the brick. If the brick has been laid correctly and correct amount of ties used then there will be zero problems.

oldfrt · 08-26-2009, 08:05 AM

If going through the brick gives you the hebegeebee's,is there enough ground clearence to drop the deck down ,fasten to the foundation and add a step or two?

deckman22 · 08-26-2009, 05:22 PM

Attaching to brick veneer has been the cause of more than one deck failure. Thing is when a deck fails, especially 2nd story decks, people get hurt, or worse.

One thing the inspectors here have allowed us to do is to drop a post down past the brick ledge & put a couple of bolts into the slab, in lieu of footings along the foundation.

John Hyatt · 08-26-2009, 05:39 PM

Al,I my self would like to see a 3000 sq ft deck fastened to brick veneer, Mate, no matter how maney little wall ties are involved. J.

ARI001 · 08-26-2009, 06:07 PM

Unless you consider the veneer part of the primary structure it's not allowed by code anyway you want to look at it. To the OP I ran into this about a year and a half ago. You can rent a bobcat with an auger and extension ($500 delivered to the site) and it will get you down where you need to be. If it's a relatively small deck you can hand dig but that really sucks. Backhoe is overkill and will make a big mess even with the best of operators. I typically only cantilever 24" on a 2x 10 joist but we are allowed 30" here on a 2x10.

JonM · 08-26-2009, 06:44 PM

Believe it or not...but a free standing deck doesn't have to sit below the frost line...R403.1.4.1 Exception 2