Exterior Stone Tile Insets At Wood Decking ???

akm

'Custom Building Products' recommends...

Start with exterior grade plywood.
Spread a polymer modified mortar on the plywood, like Flex Bond, using a 1/4x1/4 notch trowel to spread the thin set.
Using ½ inch Wonder Board.
Put the Wonder Board on the thin set that you just spread out.
Screw it down with backer board screws (1-1/4'' long) or galvanized roofing nails 1-1/2''.
Then for a waterproofing, use 'Red Gard Waterproofing and Crack Prevention Membrane' over the Wonder Board.
Once the Red Gard is dry, use a a polymer modified thin set (Flex Bond) to set your exterior rated tile or stone.

Assuming the framing is adequate for tile inset areas, with a little slope etc, any thoughts ?

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Thanks again for your help.
akm

John Hyatt

Dont even think about it Man!!! there are so maney things wrong with that install I cant list them all. J.

akm

John
Thanks for the reply.
Must admit am not completely convinced myself, but trying to get more info.
One of our main local tile suppliers, been in the business forever, seems too agree with CBP, ie that its ok... although he recommended an upgrade from RedGard to Custom9240, similar WPg except adds mesh.
What would you suggest for the type of project (ie tile inset areas on wood frame deck) ?

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Thanks again for your help.
akm

BobsLandscaping

Tile Tech makes a pedestal instalation system that I've used on 2 decks. It works pretty well. I used LTL to build the deck, then installed the pedestal system and Tile Tech tiles over it. Came out nice.

www.tiletechpavers.com

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John Hyatt

The whole thing is wrong. Over at another site a diy tried the same install Man what a lot of work for nothing,less than nothing, he had to demo.

Belive me I have tried to come up with a tile install on an exposed to the weather deck. Plywood is Plywood makes no diferance if its marine grade ex grade or cdx it will de lamm exposed to water.The more layers you put on the more movement, the more Folks walk on it the more cracking takes place with the tile and the grount. Water gets in no matter how much goop you put on, in fact that makes it worst the water stands in the cracks cant get thru, bang bang the tile comes up. This is on a sunny day dont even factor in freezing weather.

Like I said if there is a way to do that install I would love to know it, I could sell the living poo poo out of it. J.

Austkaine

Try these guys www.stonedeckwest.com/index.htm

I have never used this product, but have wanted to for awhile. It has plastic clips that screw down to your frame and the tiles glue down to their clips. It allows drainage and movement of the tile. I do know that around here it is lots o' $$$$$. Can't get anyone to bite, they usually go running back to decking when they see the price!

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Custom Decks, Pergolas and Outdoor Living - Denver, Littleton, Highlands Ranch, Parker, Lone Tree, Centennial, Englewood, Lakewood, Castle Rock, Colorado
Basement Finish, Kitchen Remodel and General Contractor - Denver, Littleton, Highlands Ranch, Parker, Lone Tree, Centennial, Englewood, Lakewood, Castle Rock, Colorado

BobsLandscaping

I didn't make mine waterproof. Basically I built a 3 inch deep well into the deck. Then I set the pedestal in place and laid the tiles over that. Around the edge I had a 2 inch lip that supports the edge tiles, pedestals in the center. Water drains through the tiles, through the deck, to the ground. The waterproof installation method is for rooftops.

akm

Thanks to all for the feedback and info.

Have seen the stonedeckwest.com (SDW) system online and it seems like a decent way to go (also similar to the 'pedestal' idea).

Maybe the SDW system (tile directly to joists, see attachment) could be used with smaller (not greater than 12x12) ext tile and not the 16x16 SDW proprietary tile... maybe even set tile directly on top of PT joists with another type of non-proprietary spacer (like SS finish nail etc), and wrap the top of jst with self stick 'butyl window wrap' to help soften the jst for any minor surface irregularities and help keep the jsts a little dryer ?
Also add jst blocking under perp tile jts.
Understand butyl has a service temp of -40 to +180deg.
Maybe even use colored butyl (sanded or not) caulk/backer rod at narrow tile joints, with weep holes at selected drainage locations ?

Just running ideas up the flagpole.

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__________________
Thanks again for your help.
akm

John Hyatt

I have looked at that install farliy hard...two things

1 The tile, the strength is just not there, even 12'' risk is just too great if some one lands say a big beer mug right into the middle of it on a drinking night, or a fat chick doing the two step ( I got nothing bad to say bout fat chicks in fact they try harder and they love to ride on the Harley )

2 the fastening system, after spending that kind of MooLaa the Wallet is not going to go for the movement. If you start out caulking you will be doing it forever.

Idea>>> using 12'' tile over a SS grid, like a beefy one,fastened with ss grometed screws on 4 corners. rubber washers inbetween the conection to the frame. The counter sink in the tile covered with a ipe/garapa glued in plug. The framing/grid allows for drain all around the 12'' insert. The tile is 1'' thick fired slow<<<

I Tell Yo Mon...there is a way to do this and we could make Major bucks!!! JohMon

BobsLandscaping

I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel. The Tile Tech system works great.

akm

Agreed.
Guess just sometimes like trying to come up with more generic (an hopefully simpler) solutions that work as well or better.
Sent an email to TT for info on where to purchase etc, havent heard back yet.
Do you have a source, or is it an online thing... couldnt find any online purchasing info or distributor info at their website... may have missed it.
Maybe will just give them a call.
Any other thoughts ?

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Thanks again for your help.
akm

BobsLandscaping

I'm one of their authorized contractors. I buy direct from them. The tiles run $3.50 for a 12"x12" and are very good quality. Lots of color choices.

JamesKB2

Here's what I think....I might even try it, as a test to see how it holds up.

1st I'd notch the joists 1/2" in the area I wanted the tile. I'd then install blocking perpendicular to the joists, two sizes smaller than the joist size. (Joist 2 X 10, blocking 2 X 6) Blocking would be 16" O.C. in the to be tiled area. You're creating "squares" doing this. Then add a strong back 2 X 4 to the notched joists below your blocking. You'd have to rip it down a 1/4", or notch it at the blocking locations.

Then, I'd set 1/2" treated plywood into my notched area to build back flush. Your blocking should allow for a picture frame of the decking, or butt joint, whatever. I'd install the plywood with exterior grade poly adhesive and screw it down 6" O.C. with rated fasteners, both edge and field. (S.S, or ACQ grade) Then, I'd lay Grace Ice and Water down over the plywood with a generous lap, say 8". Tamp or roll the joints, make it straight and tight so it seals together. Next, install 1/2" durock or hardi with similar fastener schedule. I'd then tape joints with fiber mesh and skim coat the backer board with thin set. Finally, I'd lay the tile with a modified mortar mix, using a trowel depth to allow the tile to lay flush with the deck. Grout with exterior rated or use a latex to mix. You also might create slight reliefs in the terazzo strip at grout joint locations to aid drainage.

The plywood over blocking matrix will in effect create a single solid plane, the Grace will hold off water (if it get's that far) and act as a control surface for movement.

Heck, one could even do a poured pan instead of durock or hardi. Not much different than a shower pan.

Thoughts or additions welcome of course!

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I will build you whatever you want, just draw it on the back of a big enough check.

akm

Thanks for the ideas.
Sounds a little like the CBP recommendation at the first post in this thread, ie setting over plywood, cement backerboard etc.
Guess the most concerning question for me is maybe the complexity (although still need to run through it a bit more in my head) and the idea of freezing water within that system.
Seattle WA gets long periods of rain and then overnight freezing at times in the winter.

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Thanks again for your help.
akm

JamesKB2

It's similar. Mine addresses movement and I believe is more water tight in regards to protecting the plywood substrate.

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I will build you whatever you want, just draw it on the back of a big enough check.

JamesKB2

Ok, let's think max drainage then.....

How about the aforementioned, but skip the durock or hardi. Instead, tack down some metal lath, Stainless or aluminum. Next, lay your tile using daubs of polyurethane cement at the corners and center. I'd say a dollar coin in size would work. Set terrazzo strips around the perimeter.

Skip grouting, let the water drain though the tile and lath. I'td be a PITA to keep clean if there's trees or other debris creating things. I suppose you could lay a pattern of 4" of backer board set with 1" gaps too, then glue to that to allow drainage. Even furring or sleepers with 1" gaps ect would work to support the tile, but allow drainage.

The system showing clips and free span tile scares me too. I would think that if one took a shot, fractured but not evident, that someone could break and fall through it.

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I will build you whatever you want, just draw it on the back of a big enough check.

John Hyatt

Good idea James. I agree there is just too much movement with the marketed set up and it seems really frail. Using plywood or any other pannel is like a goat humping a mule.

That mesh thing has merit hmmmm with a channel surround so the four corners could be glued in and the whole thing could be fastened to the framing. No grout at all leave say an 1/8 or 3/16 all around. I like it
Jon Mon

redwood

I've done the Stonedeck system, and I liked it. It was costly though. We had a torched on roof below, and framed over it. I've posted pics before, you can probably search for it.

I've also done a lot of concrete patio decks, as well as carports. These all had drainboard over the roofing substrate and under the concrete. I would assume that you could then tile directly over the concrete, couldn't you?

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Mark
Los Gatos, CA
www.creative-redwood-designs.com

akm

Thanks again for the ideas and discussion.
Will be testing a tile set in a special trowelable butyl adhesive on plywood over the weekend... water saturate, freezer, pull-off, oven, impact, etc.
Any other test method suggestions ?

Late edit: Ooops, did I say which weekend ?
Supplier closed on Fri, so guess it looks like this week or coming weekend for test.

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Thanks again for your help.
akm

akm

Finally the test.

Its between...
1. 'SikaBond', www.sikaconstruction.com/tds-cpd-SikaBondConstructionAdhesive-us.pdf
and
2. 'EZ-Stik' (Trowelable EZ-Stik #3), www.press-seal.com/products/product.php?p_id=23&option_id=1

6x6 exterior grade stone tile applied over 6x6 3/4in CDX with above 'adhesives'.

Will try...
a. freeze samples after water soak
b. sun bake samples after water soak
c. try prying tile off plywood
d. try pounding tile off plywood with hits to plywood

Other 'test' suggestions ?

__________________
Thanks again for your help.
akm