Dual elevated decks supporting hot tub and sauna - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-23-2009, 11:35 PM

Hey all,

This is my current project - replacing dual elevated decks, the back deck is currently supporting a 7x7 hot tub and a 10x10 enclosed sauna.

Just a little bit o' structural framing materials! I gotta say, I was thoroughly impressed by the driver. He was able to wrangle a dual axle truck back up their very steep, turning driveway.

I rarely get freaked out...but this really got me. I was demo'ing the middle of the back deck and pulled the 2x4 brace off the post/beam connection - and found this.

The beam end on the left had rotted out to the point where the beam was sitting on 1/2" of wood. That end had compressed and the whole end is sitting 1 7/8" lower than the left side. I don't know if they planned that to help water drain but it's nasty. I don't know if I'm going to be able to jack up that side of the sauna w/o tweaking plumbing or the sauna structure itself.

I had planned on installing a temp support under the sauna anyway so I could pull out the beam and replace it. Once I saw that, getting the temp support up was my first priority. I was thinking about all the times I'd walked on that deck...that beam could've failed at any time, bringing me down - with a sauna on top of me to boot. Scary freakin' scene, I tell ya.

I had a scissors jack in my truck - what a joke! Like bringing a crayon to a gun fight! I bent the little metal nubs on the handle before budging the structure. I'll pick up a 2-ton bottle jack tomorrow morning and get the temp beam jacked into place. Stick some posts under it, brace everything 6 ways to Sunday and call it good.
(No, that was not my final brace. That 2x8 was just to hold the 4x12 in position while I maneuvered the jack and post under it!)

I'm going to leave the hot tub on the deck too. I'll frame the middle of the deck, move the hot tub onto the new framing, demo the old framing under the hot tub, build new, then move it back. A hassle, but less so than craning the thing off the deck, then back on. Plus, the less it gets tweaked while being moved around, the better chance it has of not popping leaks.

This is gonna keep me busy for a little while - 600 sq. ft. front deck, 400 sq. ft. back deck w/ a staircase connecting the two. They're getting TT Earthwoods Walnut w/ BuilderRail and Deckorator balusters. I'm also going to dry in the area under the back deck w/ TT Dryspace.

Mac

gallerytungsten · 04-24-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC

I had a scissors jack in my truck - what a joke! Like bringing a crayon to a gun fight! I bent the little metal nubs on the handle before budging the structure. I'll pick up a 2-ton bottle jack tomorrow morning and get the temp beam jacked into place. Stick some posts under it, brace everything 6 ways to Sunday and call it good.

hi Mac, have you seen those metal shoring poles that can be extended? Mine go from around 10' to around 15'. Might be a little long for this job, but very handy in general. Also, you might want to get something stronger than a 2 ton jack. It's not that much more for a 10 ton or 20 ton. I use 20 ton jacks with my shoring poles. (If you do a lot of jacking, the kind with the extending top on an acme thread are even better.)

parkers5150 · 04-24-2009, 06:09 PM

hey Mac, if your doing the TT Dry Space... are you planning on finishing the underside of the decks ???

Greg Di · 04-24-2009, 07:38 PM

I agree, Mac.

Don't even bother with a two-ton jack. Just buy a big one. You can never have too much jack power.

Just remember, if you buy a hydraulic jack to shore the load quickly because you don't want one of those suckers to fail on you.

Side note: Now that I have the mini, I realized it's REAL helpful for jacking decks up. For instance, I had to install a 6x6 post after the whole deck was framed (long story) and I just brought the mini over and flicked up the girder. Much easier than doing it the old way.

Mac, I guess you need to buy a mini!

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-24-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkers5150

are you planning on finishing the underside of the decks ???

I don't understand the question.

Mac

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-24-2009, 10:28 PM

Well, until I have the cash sitting around to throw at a mini(!), I picked up a 4 ton bottle jack for $25 and drilled out a hole in the bottom of a 4x4. Tapped the jack up into the hole and secured the top of the post to the temp beam w/ HTT straps.

Had my support posts rough cut and LedgerLocks installed and ready to go.
Leveled the bottle jack (nothing worse than having the jack and post jackknife halfway up 'cause you didn't level the jack!)
Jacked the structure up 1 7/8" v e r y s l o w l y. Some pops and creaks but nothing scary sounding!

As soon as it was high enough, I measured, cut and installed the support posts. No need to leave that pressure on the jack any longer than necessary.

Then I looked at the old beam. Damn. It was a lot worse than I originally thought.

The rot went back a good foot and a half into the beam and only the bottom 2" or less was decent wood. I have no idea how it stayed in the air for so long, I really don't.

Installed blocking as I cut out joists to prevent rollover,
braced structure laterally in both directions,
locked it back to the house w/ a 4x4 and multiple HTT straps,
cut away the rest of the joists and beams.

I've got some cleanup to do around the edges, pull off the ledger and clean out the rot, then it's on to framing...

Ya'll have a good weekend!

Mac

parkers5150 · 04-24-2009, 10:34 PM

before i asked the ? i did not realize that particular product was unto itself a finished product. out of curiosity and concern, i ckd the install vid on their websight, wich brings me back around to my original question for you and or anyone else out there using these types of systems. my concern is that these are not "top down" systems wich leads me to believe there is reason for concern with debris and moisture getting trapped against the structural framing, especially w/ the amount of trees around your decks. something you might consider, and this is just a humble suggestion, is some 2 1/2" EDPM or vinyl liner over your ledger and joisting to minimze the above mentioned i'd be interested in your thoughts

**BuiltByMAC** · 04-24-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkers5150

reason for concern with debris and moisture getting trapped against the structural framing, especially w/ the amount of trees around your decks.

The Dryspace channels mount to the underside of the joists, mounted to the joist sides. They're angled away from the house to drain water down to a gutter system on the outer beam.
Debris can be sluiced down to the gutter by spraying a house through the decking gaps near the house. If it gets too built up, the deck board closest to the house can be unscrewed and lifted out of the way so a more direct blast of water can move the debris.
I've been pretty happy w/ the system on other installs. It covers both the waterproofing and the finished underside in one application.
I have not been asked yet to use a waterproofing system like you're talking about, I know nothing about such a system. Once I get a project that Dryspace will not work on for whatever reason, I'll research other options, including EPDM. 'Til then, I'll stick w/ what I know - less chance of it being a 'learning experience!'

I would love to read a thread about someone who installs a different type of product to waterproof the underside of a deck. Photo documenting the process as you go is even better.

Mac

parkers5150 · 04-25-2009, 09:13 AM

hey Mac, sorrry for not taking the time to explain myself more clearly. i understand that the system is pitched away from the house, and i really like the idea of removing the #1 board for cleaning. rather than a different system, i was speaking in terms of perhaps upgrading the system that you are installing. the 2 1/2" strip of whatever you choose to use will install flat on all your structurals and ideally sag on either side so as to guide water and debris straight into your system whithout running down the sides and creating potential rot. i' sure alot of people will scream overkill, but for me, one look at your demo photos and that "overkill" sounds more like a sleeping pill. Just my 2 cents good luck on your project

**BuiltByMAC** · 05-10-2009, 01:04 AM

My original plan of cleaning up a little dry rot and then on to the framing got all blown to hell this week! After pulling off the old ledger board and beams, I spent most of the week replacing old rotten framing on the house, the addition, the garage and the sauna. Since my deck will be touching all these structures, it needed to be done before I even started framing.

Corner of the garage

Flashed, flashed and flashed some more, added OSB

This is why I highly recommend adding flashing tape to the tops of your built-up beams! Water, debris and ants got between the doubled joists supporting the sauna wall and went to town!

Sequence of installing a holddown inside the house framing...I install one holddown to the house joists, close up the hole and add a second holddown to my deck joist. A 1/2" all-thread bolt holds the two together to prevent any possibility of the deck pulling away from the house. This is a fairly new engineering requirement (I first had to do it on a deck last February). It's a bit more work but makes the structure that much more bombproof.

I doubled up the joists under the sauna, cut the rot away from the tops of the existing sauna joists, ran joists out for the space between the addition and the house and blocked the whole mess. I painted the tops of the old joists w/ end cut treatment and will install flashing on them before I deck.
The Gutster was very helpful in getting the new sauna joists installed - a whole lotta leverage to rotate them into position w/o destroying them by beatin' em w/ a sledge. They were just a hair taller than the old joists because I wanted them to take more of the load. Since the two supporting beams were already in position, the joists had to go in angled and be twisted/pounded up vertical.

This is going to be interesting making the decking look right - I've got three different structures w/ 3 dif. threshold heights built by 3 dif. guys who apparently used 3 dif. levels! Might have to break down and get a portable planer for tweaking the joist tops so all elevation changes in the decking are so gradual as to be unnoticeable. Just a little bit of work ahead...

A shot from below the sauna showing the doubled joists w/ partial blocking. I'll go back and finish the blocking runs. With joist bays around 8", a palm nailer is a mighty useful tool!

Looking up from the hillside... I pulled the temp support beam out from under the sauna yesterday.

Sun seems to be here mostly for good...it's so nice to be workin' in the sunshine again.
This has been a long, arduous winter for multiple reasons, weather not the least of them - I'm glad it's over.

Mac

naptown CR · 05-10-2009, 01:24 AM

looking at the framing it appears to be fir or fedwood can you identify?

**BuiltByMAC** · 05-10-2009, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naptown CR

looking at the framing it appears to be fir or fedwood can you identify?

Pressure treated wood in the west is called hem fir, a combination of hemlock and several dif. species of fir.

Never heard of fedwood before...what is that? I know SYP is the wood used for pt in the East...

Mac

neolitic · 05-10-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC

Pressure treated wood in the west is called hem fir, a combination of hemlock and several dif. species of fir.

Never heard of fedwood before...what is that? I know SYP is the wood used for pt in the East...

Mac

"F" is pretty close under "R"
on my keyboard too.

Don't know why the caps lock
has to be so damn close
to the "A" either.

**BuiltByMAC** · 05-10-2009, 11:32 AM

could be... I know I don't know every wood out there so I wasn't immediately assuming a typo.
I thought it might be a regional name for some type of wood.
That's why I asked for clarification.

Mac

dkillianjr · 05-10-2009, 06:10 PM

Lookin good mac

I was wondering when you were gonna post some more pics

Dave

redwood · 05-10-2009, 06:15 PM

Mac, I am surprised that you don't use PT. douglas fir, instead of hem fir. I find it to be much more stable and I beleive that it is a hair stronger.

Here, hem fir is what the big boxes sale. The good lumber yards carry only douglas fir.

BreyerConstruct · 05-10-2009, 08:44 PM

Looking good Mac!
Hope you're billing enough!

~Matt

**BuiltByMAC** · 05-10-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redwood

Mac, I am surprised that you don't use PT. douglas fir, instead of hem fir....Here, hem fir is what the big boxes sale. The good lumber yards carry only douglas fir.

Oh man, now you're gonna make me double-check w/ the yard tomorrow! I know the framing lumber (non-pt) is doug. fir, I was pretty sure that the pt was all hem-fir though. Hmmm....

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreyerConstruct

Looking good Mac!
Hope you're billing enough!

This one is definitely priced correctly. I've become more comfortable w/ the complex elevated projects and have gotten good at not giving away my services inadvertently anymore!! Also, dry rot repair was covered under the contract as a "to be decided" additional fee because I couldn't know the extent of it until I got the old deck ripped out. I don't rip anyone off and I try really hard not to short myself.

Mac

**Double-A** · 05-10-2009, 10:43 PM

Looks good Mac. We sure could use some of your experience in Arkansas. No one died, but 8 were hospitalized. I haven't heard which college they were from, but if it was the engineering college...

Police say eight people attending an end-of-the-semester party for University of Arkansas faculty and staff were injured when a deck collapsed.

BreyerConstruct · 05-11-2009, 03:43 PM

Good man Mac.
Learning is important, but getting the bills paid is as well!

~Matt