Deck Screws Vs Joist Nails

redwood

[
Repeat "The Designer/Engineer of Record can specify a substitute screw"...

So, has anyone done this?[/quote]

The key word in your statement is "can". But, in my 30+ years of building, I have never had a engineer substitute a screw for a nail in shear situations.

If it helps you to beleive me, I actually have a degree in structural engineering. But No, I am not a engineer.

__________________
Mark
Los Gatos, CA
www.creative-redwood-designs.com

subybohn

Screws in hangers are not practical in basic deck design at this time for the pros - due to costing more and slowing the pros down...

But if screws have not been tested, why not? This way will will know if they could be a viable alternative…or to put this debate to bed once and for all.

Most importantly, I want to make sure 10d x 1-1/2" Joist nails are not being used unless noted by the manufacture, for they are not designed specifically for "ALL" hanger use.

That is the basis for this discussion for I’m floored when I hear people make this assumption...especially when this comment it is coming from an inspector….or the salesman selling the hangers.

BuiltByMAC

I'm going to have to assume at this point that Suby is not a native English speaker. The reasons he/she just gave for "pros" not using screws in hangers are not the reasons we've been giving. Suby doesn't understand what we're saying. This is like talking to a brick wall...I think I mistook incomprehension for tenacity.

Mac

PA woodbutcher

Always

All I'm saying take 2 8' 2x4s tack them together with a couple of nails and use them to jack something up...try the same thing with screws and see which gives first. I know I've sheared screws off doing this, turned around and used 16s and had no problem. After re-reading and checking the rest of the posts, I think MAC may be on to something.....I mean how hard headed can someone be?

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'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.' - Ronald Reagan

DecksEtc

Glad I could bring a smile to your morning coffee Mac!

Subybohn,

What kind of "time savings" do you think there is between screws & nails for joist hangers?

Before I had a palm nailer (they weren't readily available in Canada until this year ), I guarantee you that I could screw a joist hanger in place faster than by nailing it. I don't use nails for the time savings, I use them because they are the right thing to use and they are all that passes building codes.

What is it that you're not understanding???

Kgmz

It does not say that. It says that these hangers are engineered for full load when hung from 3x or better material, meaning a 3x8 or 4x8. And if you use this hangers on a 2x8 then you have to use the 10d x 1.5" nails on the face and take a load reduction. And you cannot use any other nail than a 1.5" nail when it is nailed straight into the face of a 2x.







Same as above, you have no other choice but to use a 1.5" nail since it is nailed straight into the face of a 2x and take the load reduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subybohn To maximize the load these hangers can carry, I have to install an equivalent fastener to a 10d common.

This is only for the double shear nails, since you can't use a 10d common nailed into the face of a 2x.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subybohn I am only using the hangers along the house and with the header lagged into the rim board; I have the needed 3" for the 10d length....for both the header 10d nail and the joist 10d nail.

Now learn to read the book and understand what it is saying, all pages.


You are already forced to take the load reduction of .65 because of the 2x material you are hanging it from. So if you use the 10d box nail (.131) you have to take a reduction of .83, which is well above the .65 reduction of the 2x material. So use 10d x1.5" nails for the face and the 10d box nails for the double shear nailing, easy.


Also when Simpson refers to a 8d,10d, etc. hanger nail. They are referring to its diameter, not its length. Whether it is a 10d x 1.5" or 10d x 2.5" hanger nail.

Kgmz

Who do you think designs and tests for Simpson, Engineers.

Don't you think they have probably tested some of these things with screws.

And they do also have some products that use screws, just look in the book.

Also since you do have internet access, download their latest catalogs and technical bulletins.

And last if you have any questions please call Simpson at 800-999-5099

reveivl

Off topic I know, but man we've had palm nailers out here for years and years.

Who was it said that screws are always better? They each have their uses, learn to use the right one in the right place. Lotta people here are talking a lot of sense.

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From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

subybohn

Simpson Ties themselves stated "deck screws" have not been tested.

So if screws are faster to install than nails -- why isn't anyone asking for deck screws to be tested?

And yes, there is a difference between a deck screw and a 16d common nail... I am trying to compare a 3" deck Screw to a 3" 10d spiral.

Information I have gathered is from inspectors, sales people who sell the hangers (who said SS cannot be used with LUS28Z and Z is for Zinc), pro's including postings from web-sites - they all have something to say.... But I'm not finding consistency.

When inspectors told us, we have to fill "every hole" in the hangers with the 1-1/2" joist nails (including the joist AND the header) -- for that is what the "joist nails" were "designed for" -- my mouth dropped, and we had to comply or fail inspection.

I'd rather install screws....which I read from THIS web-sight during a Screws vs Nail discussion back in 2005.

I am just trying to find consistency....or lab results comparing Nails to Screws...

It's nice to hear screws are no longer time consuming to install....for it helps to show screws could be a viable alternative in hangers and should be tested.

And by the way -- you don't have to take an allowable load reduction, if you are using 3" and nailing through a deck header board into the rim board....

And if you use a box (casting) nail, you'll need a 20d box for the same diameter a 10d common has (0.148). 10d box only has a diameter of 0.135 which is less then the neck (area I call without threads in shear plane) of a 3" deck screw.

Again, I'm just looking for consistency....

Kgmz

Oh yes you do. You better read that book better.

From the Simpson Wood Construction Connectors Book C-2008.

Built-up lumber

This must be determined by the Designer/Engineer of Record.


So unless a engineer designs this and you have a stamped approved copy onsite, you have to take the reduction.

Also most engineers never design something at the max load of a hanger.

Kgmz

I just did a search for you and found 10d common galvanized nails all over the place.

Do a web search for a "10hgc"

Do any of your local suppliers carry Grip-Rite nails, they make them and my local suppliers and lumberyards carry them.

redwood

This topic is getting old. Just use the damn screws.

__________________
Mark
Los Gatos, CA
www.creative-redwood-designs.com

RobertCDF

Yeah do whatever you want and shut the heck up. Codes and engineers dont have a clue what they are talking about. You are the smartest man around much smarter than us dumb deck builders who have no field experience at all.

__________________
Robert Shaw
Colorado Springs Custom Decks
Colorado Custom Decks
Custom Composite Decks

basswood

A few thoughts:

The dude is pushing a rope.

People who prefer screws for hangers probably lack skills driving nails by hand.

If you hate hand driving joist hanger nails, get a palm nailer or positive placement gun.

Designing decks (and other structures) that rely less on hardware and fasteners makes them more fault tolerant (especially given the issues of ACQ and galvanic corrosion).

Put beams below joists (rather than flush beams with hangers), when possible. Think to yourself if the hardware or fasteners fails will the structure hold together.

Set beams in notches in the posts and let-in braces (get back to using some real joinery).

I like hardware, but it is often used as strapping, holding bad designs together.

Jigs, a few tools, and some skill and traditional joinery can be just as fast as cobbling a bunch of HDG stuff together.

I am doing a below grade retaining wall and stairs right now, the half lap notches take me 6 minutes, and require no expensive hardware or fasteners.

Food for thought...

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neolitic

Nice to see someone else who believes
in cuprinol.
I have been as much as called apostate.
Told that treatment penetrates all the way
through the wood, etc.

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(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

BuiltByMAC

Whereas I agree with you in theory, this particular application (joist hangers at a ledger connection) doesn't have a lot of other options. You could install a beam at the house and set the joists on it but then you'd have posts next to the house.

I like using real joinery as much as the next craftsman, but sometimes, ya still gotta pull out the hardware! (Psst, suby - Then you use nails to install them).
Running straps around the back of the ledger is the closest thing I've found to making that connection bomb-proof.

Mac

s. donato

mac i like that strap around the back method. but i imagine it only works if the ledger to house connection is good too ;-)

stp57

Just a note on deck screws:
Home Depot has repented of one instance of choosing cheap over quality. Earlier this year they replaced their Square Drive (from Phillips) with a T25 torx head screw from China. Obviously, I wasn't the only dissatisfied customer...they just dumped the entire line & went back to the Phillips screw! Take that you European, metric loving people. Money still talks.
Another note: The Phillips company had made an agreement with Home Depot many years ago that Lowes would not get the Square Drive system, but instead the standard Phillips head (which strips out easily, BTW). HD's Chinese run cost them dearly. Lowes is now selling the Square Drive as Phillips ll Plus for $23 a five pound box v.s HD's $28 a box! Big difference!

basswood

Good points. I'm not anti-hardware and the ledger connection is a practical place for it... just figured that since the nail vs. screws debate was going nowhere, I would suggest a third option of eliminating some hardware and fasteners (screws or nails). Just a random thread hijack (though I'm not sure you can hijack something that is not going anywhere).

Sometimes simpler is better. Not always practical, but I like freestanding deck designs (ledger connections are often a weak point both structurally and for water leaks). I'm sure your ledger connections are both strong and water tight, and my deck is bolted onto a ledger at my house.

On hardware, I've had windows and doors show up one size too large and had to remove trimmers under a header and substitute header hangers. Now I hear that to minimize thermal bridging of framing and save some trees, some designs are calling for all headers to be hangered.

Now that seems like hardware run amuck to me, but some deck designs also rely way more on metal than they should. I am just encouraging simple solid design. Design like the metal could fail...cause it might someday.

I so think the ACQ/hanger corrosion thing is a timebomb.

Not really a luddite or into conspiracy theories. Could get interesting.

Have a great day.

Bass

BuiltByMAC

Hijack away, this thing has definitely run it's useful course!!

Regarding the ACQ corrosion, one thing I do is spray the backs and insides of the hangers w/ PlastiDip, a rubberized coating (used for coating tool handles). Puts another layer between the ACQ lumber and hanger, and is w a a y faster than using flashing tape...

Mac