Deck Live Load Help Please

 
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:26 PM   #1
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Deck Live Load Help Please


Hi

Could some one help me with how to calculate live load calculations please
I am working on a deck platform that will be inside of a storage building (see drawing)
I have it where the posts are 6x6's, the ledger boards are double 2x8s and the floor joists are 2x6's at 16" OC. The size of the area that will be holding the weight is 8'x8'. How would I calculate the weight it could hold?

Now, the price was too high for my customer so I would also like to calculate how much live load one the same size would be using only 4x4 posts, 2x6 double ledgers, and 2x6 floor joists.

Thank you
Charles
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Old 12-27-2007, 03:40 PM   #2
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


From my calc program it shows about 60 PSF.
100 PSF if you up to larger footings and 2x8 joists.

I am NOT a structrual engineer.

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Old 12-27-2007, 04:06 PM   #3
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Thank you Robert

BTW what Calculator program are you using for that?




Thank you
Charles
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:23 PM   #4
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


http://plananalyst.com/flowcharts.html I just worked it as a deck with the min specs for an 8x8 with 60 PSF and 100 PSF and it gave me the 2x6's or the 2x8's

BTW it speced 2x8's for the beams on both the 60 and the 100. So if you want 60 just use double 2x8's for beams with 2x6's for joists.
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:41 PM   #5
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


If you check out decks.com they have a calculator for figuring just about everything. I put in 2x8's 16" oc and it came out 40psf live load.
What are they wanting to store up there? The way you are describing to build it will hold a lot of weight ,can't imagine they would have something heavier than what you are building it to hold. Otherwise how would they get it up there in the first place. You may be trying to build it too beefy and that's why your bid is too high.
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:54 PM   #6
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


I was taught 40psf (human) live load and then add, snow load my area 30psf and then dead load of about 10-15 pending on material. So 100psf is pretty safe.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:16 PM   #7
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty58 View Post
If you check out decks.com they have a calculator for figuring just about everything. I put in 2x8's 16" oc and it came out 40psf live load.
What are they wanting to store up there? The way you are describing to build it will hold a lot of weight ,can't imagine they would have something heavier than what you are building it to hold. Otherwise how would they get it up there in the first place. You may be trying to build it too beefy and that's why your bid is too high.
Hi Smitty

I have no idea what she is going to put up there, that is why I made it beefy to begin with, I don't want to build something and have it fall down on anything or anyone. As far as my bid being too high, I doubt that, I only bid the whole thing materials (no pressure treated lumber) and labor at $1800 and I just re-emailed her after taking off the railing, lowering it by 2',changed the 2x8 ledgers to 2x6's and changed the 6x6 posts to 4x4's and lowered the price to $1350 M&L, I really need the money right now and I am thinking that is about the lowest I can go.

Charles
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:27 PM   #8
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Did you include the necessary rails and hand rails.

If you run into a code issue, what the code can carry may be secondary to what the code requires.

Do not have the owner think that you are in any way a qualified designer or you could be on the line for any structural or safety issues.

Even if you did not personally overload the deck and there was a problem, you will have to defend yourself with no friends around you. The customer was smart asking you to come up with some load numbers and protect himself.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:24 PM   #9
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


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Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
Did you include the necessary rails and hand rails.

If you run into a code issue, what the code can carry may be secondary to what the code requires.

Do not have the owner think that you are in any way a qualified designer or you could be on the line for any structural or safety issues.

Even if you did not personally overload the deck and there was a problem, you will have to defend yourself with no friends around you. The customer was smart asking you to come up with some load numbers and protect himself.
Hi ConcreteMasonry

I never do try to come off as an architect or anything, just a carpenter.

Actually she didn't ask load numbers at all, I was just curious about that myself.

It is being built inside of a storage building that this lady rents and she just wants more space for her junk.

As far as code goes this is freestanding and is not attached to the ground and technically can be lifted up and carried away just like a shed.


After I get the job then I will tell her how unsafe it will be without a front railing and the handrails on the stairs and hopefully she will want them.


Thank you
Charles
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:24 PM   #10
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Charles - I thought your original post said they thought the price was too high ,didn't mean to imply you were too high. Actually in my area pt decks go from $14 - $18 per sq ft total mat / labor ,but of course you have to have a minimum. An 8x8 deck would be higher per sq ft just because of the minimum. So I think your price is good ,would not go any lower.

Good Luck
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:29 PM   #11
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Charles, after re-reading it I think I would go a different route that would save her some money and get you the job. Since it's indoors and basically just a loft like in a shed ,why not just do the floor out of plywood. Also if it's just for junk you can probably get away with 2x4's for your joists if you cantilever them. Then you can make the same amount on your labor but the total cost for her would be lower.

Again,
Good Luck
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:41 PM   #12
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty58 View Post
Charles - I thought your original post said they thought the price was too high ,didn't mean to imply you were too high. Actually in my area pt decks go from $14 - $18 per sq ft total mat / labor ,but of course you have to have a minimum. An 8x8 deck would be higher per sq ft just because of the minimum. So I think your price is good ,would not go any lower.

Good Luck
Hey Smitty
Yeah I thought my original price was pretty right on, she actually didn't say it was too high, just more than she wanted to spend on it, but she does want the extra storage area, her unit is 15' high and she wants to utilize as much of the storage building as she can since its probably around $175 per month.

Charles
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:46 PM   #13
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelape View Post
I never do try to come off as an architect or anything, just a carpenter.
In a Court of Law, your actions dictate your responsibilities. If you are drawing the deck, you are assuming responsibility for proper load calculations. So yes, you are acting as the architect and engineer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelape View Post
As far as code goes this is freestanding and is not attached to the ground and technically can be lifted up and carried away just like a shed.
Technically, this type of construction is much harder than one that is connected to the earth and structure. Now you must calculate into the design Tipover Risk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelape View Post
After I get the job then I will tell her how unsafe it will be without a front railing and the handrails on the stairs and hopefully she will want them.
This right here is subjecting YOU to a Major Personal Injury Lawsuit. You can not build something YOU KNOW is against code without assuming FULL responsibility for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelape View Post
I just re-emailed her after taking off the railing, lowering it by 2',changed the 2x8 ledgers to 2x6's and changed the 6x6 posts to 4x4's and lowered the price to $1350 M&L
Hope you have a Good Lawyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelape View Post
I really need the money right now and I am thinking that is about the lowest I can go.
This is NO WAY to go into any job. You are not an employee; I'll take this job for now because I need some cash. YOU ARE A BUSINESS MAN. This platform will follow you for the rest of your life. What I mean is; At any point in the future, if someone gets hurt on this, they are going after YOU!

If you need money right now, get a second job, DON'T RISK your Home, Family and Life for some quick cash!
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:02 PM   #14
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelape View Post

After I get the job then I will tell her how unsafe it will be without a front railing and the handrails on the stairs and hopefully she will want them.

Thank you
Charles
Yeah dude, I don't really think this is a good approach to business. Don't burn a bridge, no matter how small it is. If you come to her in the middle of the job and mention handrails, you're going to look stupid no matter how you handle it. She'll either see right through your ploy, or think you're dumb for not thinking about it in the first place. You don't get repeat or referral business this way.
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Old 12-29-2007, 10:53 AM   #15
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by LNG24 View Post
In a Court of Law, your actions dictate your responsibilities. If you are drawing the deck, you are assuming responsibility for proper load calculations. So yes, you are acting as the architect and engineer.
I am not making a blueprint of it, I just made a 3D picture in a cad program of it to show them what it would look like, and I am not charging them for it, so I don't see how that is acting like an architect or engineer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LNG24 View Post
Technically, this type of construction is much harder than one that is connected to the earth and structure. Now you must calculate into the design Tipover Risk.
It will be tight against 2 walls I doubt it would tip over, or fall down, structurally it will be more heavy duty than some exterior decks I have seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LNG24 View Post
This right here is subjecting YOU to a Major Personal Injury Lawsuit. You can not build something YOU KNOW is against code without assuming FULL responsibility for it.
The project would be "as is", and in the contract, I will state I take no responsibility for it since I am building it the way they want it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LNG24 View Post
This is NO WAY to go into any job. You are not an employee; I'll take this job for now because I need some cash. YOU ARE A BUSINESS MAN. This platform will follow you for the rest of your life. What I mean is; At any point in the future, if someone gets hurt on this, they are going after YOU!

If you need money right now, get a second job, DON'T RISK your Home, Family and Life for some quick cash!
If I don't do it, an illegal will and I can guarantee mine will be A LOT safer then theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahren View Post
Yeah dude, I don't really think this is a good approach to business. Don't burn a bridge, no matter how small it is. If you come to her in the middle of the job and mention handrails, you're going to look stupid no matter how you handle it. She'll either see right through your ploy, or think you're dumb for not thinking about it in the first place. You don't get repeat or referral business this way.

Ahren, I understand what you are saying, but if you re-read the posts you will see the orginal plan had everything in it, in lieu of lowering the price I took all railings down. So I don't see how I am "ploying" anyone when its per their request.
And what my statement means is:

"After I get the job then I will tell her how unsafe it will be without a front railing and the handrails on the stairs and hopefully she will want them."

sometimes taking something off (per their request) may look good on paper when they want to cut corners to save money, but when I speak to her in person and explain to her the dangers of it being off, I am guessing it won't look so good anymore, does that make sense to you?

Plus even if they don't want it, its going to be filled with boxes of stuff it may be easier not to have a railing on it at all, they can back the pickup truck to it and throw the boxes up there, its not like they are going to be partying on it. (like I would be lol)

Charles

Last edited by charles_tx; 12-29-2007 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:44 AM   #16
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_tx View Post


Ahren, I understand what you are saying, but if you re-read the posts you will see the orginal plan had everything in it, in lieu of lowering the price I took all railings down. So I don't see how I am "ploying" anyone when its per their request.
And what my statement means is:

"After I get the job then I will tell her how unsafe it will be without a front railing and the handrails on the stairs and hopefully she will want them."

sometimes taking something off (per their request) may look good on paper when they want to cut corners to save money, but when I speak to her in person and explain to her the dangers of it being off, I am guessing it won't look so good anymore, does that make sense to you?

Plus even if they don't want it, its going to be filled with boxes of stuff it may be easier not to have a railing on it at all, they can back the pickup truck to it and throw the boxes up there, its not like they are going to be partying on it. (like I would be lol)

Charles

WOW!


Do the rest of us legit guys a favor and hang it up, will you?

This is what you don't understand.

You can't just arbitrarily decide to build something that doesn't meet code just because a customer can't afford it. It doesn't matter if they intend to put boxes up there, or have their friends over to do the Electric Slide up there every weekend.
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:13 PM   #17
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Ahren, whatever !


If I want to give my working class customers what they can afford that is my business, I am not breaking any laws, there is no code enforcement around here for small projects such as this, deck building in my town does not even require a permit.
My customers love me and most of my jobs are repeat business and referrals from them to their family and friends.


Charles
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:37 PM   #18
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_tx View Post
Ahren, whatever !


If I want to give my working class customers what they can afford that is my business, I am not breaking any laws, there is no code enforcement around here for small projects such as this, deck building in my town does not even require a permit.
My customers love me and most of my jobs are repeat business and referrals from them to their family and friends.


Charles

Okay, buddy!

Just because there is no enforcement in your town it doesn't make it right. I'm looking forward to the article in the paper that reads: "North Texas Hacker Gets Sued by Homeowner for Falling off Platform".

If your looking into making some quick money, try dealing drugs. You already lack ethics, and you'll probably hurt less people in the long run.

Sayonara!
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:53 PM   #19
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Hmm, as to the railings and such, I dunno, does this qualify as a shelf? I'm not really familiar with codes for storage areas, just wondering.

I think the stairs need a rail though. Really, regardless of code, I would be sh*t scared to walk up that high carrying something heavy.
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Old 12-29-2007, 05:13 PM   #20
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Re: Deck Live Load Help Please


Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_tx View Post
Ahren, whatever !


If I want to give my working class customers what they can afford that is my business, I am not breaking any laws, there is no code enforcement around here for small projects such as this, deck building in my town does not even require a permit.
My customers love me and most of my jobs are repeat business and referrals from them to their family and friends.


Charles

I have more Wealthy people try to cut corners than Middle Income people. However, this is NOT A MATTER of giving them what they want. OSHA regulations apply to all. Not Just Commercial! BUILDING CODES apply to ALL, Not just Wealthy! They are there for a reason! Just because you do not have enforcement, does not exempt you from building to code! Failure to do so IS BREAKING THE LAW!

Everyone here is waving RED FLAGS and you just want to bash us for it! Do yourself a Favor, TALK TO A LAWYER! You are going to need one soon enough, might as well be prepared.

If the customer can not afford it, provide other SAFE alternatives. Every court in the nation will find YOU at fault because it was YOU who built it!

Another thing to consider, If this is one of those Storage Rental places, you need to get their OK before erecting ANYTHING inside there! How about load rating of the stairs? What are they going to be storing? This is SCREAMING Commercial Project and you are stepping into a mess!

Man, you are violating so many laws, and yes, BUILDING CODE is LAW! you just can't see it because you are strapped for cash! Although Ahren might have been a bot Out of Line with the Dealing Drugs comment, he is right. Most Pele who get caught dealing drugs are not major drug dealers, they are just simple people hard up for cash. They make bad decisions because they are hard up and this is EXACTLY what you are doing, Making a Bad Decision.


Last edited by LNG24; 12-30-2007 at 07:13 AM.
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