Deck Attachment Through Brick

pcbrand

Hi All,

Did a few decks before, but this is completely different from what I used to.

Need to replace a 28 year old deck. There is nothing wrong with it - it's just way past it's useful life and most of the beams and decking are gone due to old age. I assume it was originally built by the builder of the house back in 1980. The house is located in Vaughan, which is just north of Toronto.

So far so good, but here is the interesting part:
The deck has no ledger board. Instead the joists run directly into the house frame (through the bricks) and presumably attach directly to the house frame. I can't really see where it attaches, but it looks like it's going into the house's floor joist. The only way this could have been done was if the deck was built before the brick-layers added the bricks because the bricks are layed nicely around the deck joist entry points.

My first impulse is to cut the joists as close to the brick as possible and lay a ledger board on top of it, with extremely generous applications of caulk, and go on from there.

Any suggestions / recommendations are appreciated.

Tom M

If they're that shot maybe just cut back but leave enough to attatch to by sistering. Dont rely on it for structural support. Make it free standing. Flush cutting will create a rim joist but not a strong ledger.

RobertCDF

+1 for what tom m sugests.

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BuiltByMAC

Lurk the forum and search through old threads, there's a lot of information to be found there first...

Mac

Chris Johnson

Ontario has had it's pitfalls with decks, research Oro/Medonte township in the early 90's, made front page news, deck fell off the back of the house and the worst part, children and old people were on it at the time. This and a few other issues brought forth the toughest of deck regulations across the board.

Go to the building department and ask for their handout on decks, they give you the all the perimeters you must adhere to, including the ledger board attachment through the brick (If I remember correctly it will be a 5/8x8" lag bolt at 12"oc) joist spacing and spans are tighter than conventional house framing, beams are larger than what you use inside, posts are closer than what you do in a basement, etc. etc.

That joist through the brick is old school and no longer fly's unless you are 4x inside to 1x outside (Heavy Snow Loads for cantilevers) and the area penetrating the brick is wrapped so as wood and concrete (Bricks and Morter) do not touch.

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mickeyco

I think you need to do a lot more investigating to find out exactly what you have. Is it a veneer brick or is it a true brick house with multiple courses of bricks? I've seen this before in several versions, joists going in one coarse and resting on top of the first coarse of bricks (real brick house, not veneer), joists going into the house and sistered to the inside floor joists and the inside floor joists extended out for use on a deck. If you cut the joists flush you might find that there's only a few inches left or that you've created a wick that will allow water infiltration and possibly damage other lumber inside. If it's a veneer you can't hang a ledger on it, there are some alternatives, I posted one a while back. I always recommend freestanding when possible but you should really take a closer look and see what the actual situation is, what ever the case, you need to flash and seal any lumber that penetrates the exterior really, really well.

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pcbrand

Had some discussions with the stakeholders. We're going to make it freestanding. This deck is about 30" of the ground, so no big problem here.

However, there is another smaller deck/porch that needs to be replaced as well. This one comes out of the 2nd floor bedroom. It's anchored to the house the same way as the other deck, and is supported with two large metal posts that are about 12' high. Freestanding is not an option here due to the height involved, and the relatively small size of the porch (6x8).

Attaching pics of the deck/porch as well as the hole in the brick wall.

I am also concerned as to what to use to fill these holes left in the outer brick after removing the 2x8 beams - they are quite large, so cannot use simple mortar, it will crack immediately. At the same time, they are not quite large enough to stick a brick in there...


Again - any suggestions are welcome...

Attached Thumbnails

   

Tom M

That bottom pic looks like a fire cut pocket in the block. Although I dont know why it would be. I doesnt look like there was any hanger in that pocket either. If this is the lower one do a freestand like you decided. As far as the upper one goes if the roof rafters are running the same direction as this decks joists it may be run out from the floor joist themselves. This is something you need to investigate in the field. Either way cant you just resurface this deck? It takes alot for a joist to go bad since it is covered and only has a small edge getting weather even if it looks aged.

RobertCDF

I beg to differ... I see joists <10 years old that are rotted in the middle and working its way to the outside all the time.

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Colorado Springs Custom Decks
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bagler2729

to be honest with you if you could start from scratch, it might take a little longer,but who needs a head full of gray hair trying to figure that one out

bagler2729

question since you are in to decks I'm having trouble giving a customer a price for a low profile deck which is 12 by 15 what would you charge for just labor alone. I don't want to lose this customer by over pricing ,and i sure don't want to burn my self either ,some advice thanks

bagler2729

I'm building a low profile deck for a customer that is 12 by 15ft wide . my problem is pricing , I lost some good jobs due to pricing . i want to be competative in the market and also not short change my self. what is a reasonable price for that size deck labor wise thanks

Meezer

I would find a brickie that's looking to make a little extra money. He can easily hammer cut or saw cut a brick to size, throw in a little mortar in the hole & stuff the brick in no time at all.

RYANINMICHIGAN

$18 a square. done

wink

pcbrand please let us know how you make out with this, i would like to know incase i ever run into this situation. someone just asked a how much do i charge question and we all know what happens next.

RobertCDF

I am overpriced all the time... Just met with people last night competition bid... 11,000... mine... 15,000. I showed them the differance and said if you want me to bid to the same specs I bet it will be closer to 12,000. Wife like my design a lot and would really rather have it that way. Husband liked my over engineering and is not sure he wants to downgrade that. We will see how it all works out in the end. I might knock some off if they want to wait till Dec-Feb open ended so I can start whenever I have an empty slot.

So my response to pricing is... Sell your design and your talent. Screw the other guys... Will you win them all? NO! but you dont want them all. Of the last 3 I have lost I really only had 1 that would have been what I wanted to do... Everyone else were cheap bastards who did not care about quality.

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Colorado Springs Custom Decks
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lgoode

Looks like one to be careful with, and it sure would be nice to tie it to the house since it's up so high. Is there a city engineer that can come out and look at the job? Maybe some other decks in the area were built the same way and have been replaced.

pcbrand

I did a tour around the neighbourhood, this house is the only one that had a deck built by the builder. The rest had decks that were added on afterwards. The decks used the ledger board attachement and none had the second-floor "upper deck". They had windows where this house has a sliding door exit to the porch.

I am leaning toward a ledger board on the upper deck since making it free-standing is not practical. Why couldn't they simply build a window there...

My next step is to try to have a structural engineer buddy take a look see what he thinks. That will take some time though... guy's off on vacation somewhere.

747

I guarantee you mickeyco has seen something like that in Chicago more times then he can count. Finally that upper deck i don't like the way they did that at all for purely esthetics. Something tells me mickeyco would have never did it like that.

Its not unusally in Chicago (older) to see decks tied into the house like you have.

ps. What i ment to say was porches (front deck) done like that back in the day in Chicago where they tie into the houses structure. Not so much decks because they like concrete patio's back then.

pcbrand

I wish... I was originally hoping to resurface as well. But the joists on the upper deck are completely gone in some places. The decking material is actually in better condition than the joists. I know it's hard to see in the picture, but the right rim joist is half eaten away - doesn't even make it all the way to the end of the deck.

The joists on the lower deck were in better condition, less exposure I guess, but not good enough to attach any decking.
I do not know what they used for screws and nails 30 years ago, but it definitely wasn't treated in any way. All the contact points between wood and screws are extremely corroded. The screws didn't have any bite left at all and I was able to lift most of the decking boards without removing any screws.

Bottom line is all the existing lumber has to go - none of it is reusable.