Customer Dialogue ... How Would You Handle This?

casey344

This will likely be long, but I think we can all learn something by talking through some of this 'real' situation I'm sure we are all faced with occassionally.

We are a dock builder who was contacted months ago by a customer who wanted a retaining wall and dock built. I quoted him on the wall, he told me I was high and that he would contact me when the wall was done, that maybe my dock price would be more competitive.

Well he just emailed me and we've been going back and forth a little on the dock estimate. I'm trying to protect myself a little before spending too much time on it.

Looking for some constructive intelligent criticism or support:


Hey Casey,

Our seawall is now complete...... and we're looking at dock options.

You mentioned you had several docks already at Lake XYZ.

Obviously we would like to see some so we can get a feel for what we want to have. We're usually at the lot on "most" Saturdays from 10:00am until 4:00pm clearing trees. Any chance you could meet us there some
Saturday?

Thanks Bob.


My thoughts: Just like the seawall he will likely get multiple bids. He has no idea what he wants. I'm afraid to spend too much time helping someone like this just to have them take my design and shop it around.

Bob,

If you have a rough idea of the dock you'd like, or a budget number you want to work with we can start there. Our 2007 docks were priced between 15k and 40k.

I can get permission from a few customers, along with their addresses and you can visit their sites. I would prefer to be there in person so I can explain the construction process and answer questions but you could visit them without me.

I will be updating our website with additional pictures of recent docks. They will be posted in our photo gallery by January 15th.

I can work out a Saturday sometime this month but my preference would be to meet you during the week if possible.

Casey


Casey,

Meeting you there on a future Friday may be possible I just have to take a day of vacation to do it. If you want to go there without us no problem it's easy to find. Our address is ***.

Yes we would like to see some examples.

We're not quite sure what we want and we would like to see:

1) Completely "fixed" piers - non-floating.
2) Completely "floating" docks.
3) Combinations fixed and floating.
4) With and without roofs.
5) With and without boat lifts.
6) Made from wood - steel - aluminum - whatever Yes......we get multiple bids for any project we do.

Okay I'll look for your new website photos. I'll contact you again in a few weeks.

Thanks Bob

Bob,

I know exactly where you are, I just finished a job for a customer at 2213 *** Road, it must only be a few doors down from you.

Attached is a couple pictures of that job.

I will visit your site next week.

One thing I would like to say though before we get started.

I am glad to invest the time helping you design and choose the type of dock you want, but I would greatly appreciate some preference when it comes time to deciding which dock builder you ultimately chose. By that I mean I will match or beat any competitive price for the same job, by a known dock builder. More specifically if they are lower I would like to see their bid sheet, pricing, and drawings. This will allow me to compare apples to apples so that I can ensure that you are getting what you are expecting.
If they are lower for the same type of dock, within reason, I will lower my price to match.

This estimate process is time consuming and can often involve 20-30 hours of my time before we get to the contract, therefore I would hate to have you chose another contractor due to something as small as a $500 difference in price or sub-standard construction.

We have been on Lake *** for 25 years, Lake *** only for the past 3 years.
I have pictures of most of our competitors work, some good and some not so good. This past summer we rebuilt a new dock on Lake *** because of the incompetence of one contractor. He didn't know what he was doing and he walked off the job feeling he couldn't satisfy the customer. Another case in point was a dock that was a year old, and weeks if not days from collapsing, had to be straightened and have the proper bracing (that should have been there to begin with) installed. There was also an instance in which we got a job from a customer who was asked to give a 50% deposit at signing before work was even started by another contractor. These were three different contractors out of about a dozen or so who are currently building, that's 25% of your contractor choices on Lake ***.

Again, this is not meant to be offensive. I understand your position and appreciate you wanting to get the best value from your investment. I want to be up front with you so you understand where I am coming from.


Hey Casey,

No problem, I appreciate your concern and no I'm not offended so let's discuss.

Certainly you don't expect to get every job you ever bid on? Estimates are a cost of doing business.

Unfortunately I won't share your competitors prices with you and I won't share your price with them.

If I share their price(s) and you drop your price then I should give them a chance to drop theirs. Nope.

Without me having my own specifications or drawings an exact apples to apples comparison will be a hard.

For me these types of purchases depend on:
1) Our faith in you as a contractor.......this is really a gut call.
2) Previous jobs.......we absolutely need to see your work.
3) How you quote.....here's what we expect:
a) Separate material price.
b) Separate labor price.
c) Mutually agreed payment schedule.
d) Completion date.
e) Warranty

Lastly, no I won't lead you down the rosy path and then snatch the job away from you because of a minor price difference.

On the other hand ...( no offense ).....I won't be taken advantage of with outlandish markups on materials or labor as I can check both.

So yeah we can both be fair we get a good dock and you make a profit.I think that's how it's suppose to work. Bob


I have not responded to him yet. I thought I would get some input first, since this can really go either way. If I tell him to go fly a kite, I won't make or 'lose' any money. We really do have enough work to keep our two crews busy right now. On the other hand, like many jobs we get, his neighbors might both buy docks from us while we are working on his and they may not be half as hard to deal with.

I have never split labor and materials on an estimate, and I work mostly off of square foot figures. I don't count every hour and every board, but we are profitable. Even so, I would never share our overhead figures with him so he could never tell me what is and isn't a good price solely on the labor/material split.

What do you guys think?

Bone Saw

good luck with your project, have a nice day would be my final response

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Cole

Run Forrest, Run!!!!!!!

"Estimates are a cost of doing business", he must be a realtor!

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par3144

your right about being too long!

If your crews are busy, GREAT! Time is money, Just ask, "are You in or out"
then move on.

threaderman

See Ya !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Rots of Ruck

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Bone Saw

Zionks!

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Double-A

This is a long post, I'm sorry for that, but I really feel like you need some very specific advice at this point. I've been in your position and its a mine field just waiting for one good misstep. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions, Casey.

1) Know when to stop talking.

You've said too much in your emails to them already. I would have stopped talking specifics and started moving to set a time to drive them around to look at my work long before you reached the point you're at with them.

As far as pricing and estimates go, I wouldn't work up all this for nothing. If they have an idea in mind, then you can work up a price for it, but as far as this being a 'car shopping experience', its not. You're building a one-off for them and pricing it sixteen ways from Sunday only confuses the issue. They will get a better feel for what is out there and what they want from your (and other's) past jobs.

2) Park your ego.

Don't be afraid to show them examples of others work, especially when you feel its not the best it could be. Bear in mind, you don't want to run others work down, but if there is something that will turn into a problem down the line for the dock owner, point it out to your clients and explain how you build differently to avoid such hazards. Be proud of your work but don't get a big head over it. Don't use jargon and keep your answers to their questions short. You're not trying to impress them with your knowledge, you're trying to impress them with your attitude. It should be friendly and you should show concern for them and their wishes for this new dock.

3) Understand where you really stand with them.

At this point, you have already set an adversarial tone with the clients and they with you. You three are squaring off in a spitting contest that neither will win. Rather than telling what you will and will not do, ask questions, while trying not to commit yourself yet to what you can or cannot do.

4) Meet with them, drive them around.

Ask lots of questions and take lots of notes. You're on a fact finding mission at this point. You want to know some budget ideas they have in mind and, if possible, some design and feature ideas they really like. Don't forget to ask what they don't like as well. That is usually more important than what they do like.

5) Mind your manners.

You know the person you've been emailing somewhat from your emails with him, but you also know his wife as well. She will be in the same frame of mind as he, more than likely, so be sure to remember this. You need to overcome this in their minds and set yourself apart from what they think they know. You need to learn what phrases and attitudes in your own emails pushed his buttons and avoid those with both of them.

So what do you do now?

Don't go any further with this until you three can meet face to face. Don't assume anything they have said up to this point is written in stone. Trust and a good relationship are going to count a lot more toward them selecting you as their contractor than the way you price this job, so stop dwelling on that.

The fact they are shopping more bids is just gravy for you. The more prices they get, the more they will be confused and will look to someone to help them wade through the information. That is where you need to shine. You need to focus on their needs, wants and concerns and address them directly. Be there to answer questions.

If the idea of bidding T&M comes up again, address it as not being the way your company does business and then move on to another subject. You don't want to get into a discussions of business theory with them. Just move on.

Once you have decided to keep them as cleints or potential clients, its time to take control of this situation. Call them, meet them when its convientent for them and take them for a drive. Stop someplace and buy them a burger or a soda and start talking about what kind of estimate they want from you. Remind them your company has a fee for producing this estimate. Collect that check. If they don't want to produce it, ask if you can collect it when you deliver the estimate. Be polite, friendly and firm when talking about the fee. If you don't take it seriously, you can be sure they won't.

Check in with them a couple of days later, tell them you're working on their estimate and ask if there is anything they have discussed or thought of that should be included in the estimate. Set up a time to meet with them to deliver the estimate and collect your fee.

Good luck.

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

Danno6102

I had a guy like this wanting a composite deck with a cedar pergola a few months ago. Would have been a great addition to my portfolio. I spent about an hour on the estimate & then marked it up about another $10,000 & sent it to him, never heard back from him, & I never followed up. I'm glad.

I would do the same, spit out a quick standard estimate, mark it up a ton, & forget about it. Don't give him all the crap he wants. He does not need to know what you're charging in labor.

skyhook

Without a design, plans and specs there can be no competitive bidding. Offer a design contract first.

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SelfContract

The dangerous with "talking too mucho" is you exposed your inner self for others to see, feel, and think the same about you.... then they start to exploit your weakness !

Now, start to throw a coin game. Head or tail?.. Chances are, 50%, that "Bob" guy can come here and read his "secret" emails exposed in public because this web site is so well-known by all by now (see other thread 20,000 members strong by Nathan).... He doesn't like it a bit for sure!... Heck, maybe his nickname is already into one of us by now... j/k


No futher said but nuff lesson learn for young bidder game of cat-and-mouse.

mahlere

do you really want customers like this?

you already lost the wall on price....now you want to waste time on a dock you will be lucky to lose?

this guy wants to control the job, are you gonna let him?

the are so many flags flying, it's like the 4th of July...

but I'll leave you with this thought - who in their right mind would ever want to competitively bid a design build project? that just silly...tell him to get you prints and you'll bid it...otherwise, the estimae is free, but the design is $2k...

Bone Saw

somebody is going to end up doing the work, do you really want to be that somebody, jobs are just like doors, for every one that closes, others open

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Chester County Custom Decks
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dayspring

My experience with these types.

They want a Rolls Royce, the best of everything.
They want all the bells and whistles.
However, They don't want to pay top dollar.
He wants a detailed Labor cost, thats understandable.
He wants a detailed material list, with YOUR cost. NO WAY!
Give him a total price for material, no details. Thats your business.
He can't purchase material for the same price that you can and what you pay is none of his biz. Besides that if you happen to be a lil short on your list or make a mistake and have to buy additional material that'll be on you.
Anytime a HO wants me to calculate material and be responsible for it, I mark it up. If HO wants to pay for material and assume all risk, I just mark up my labor overhead enough to cover time for take-off.
Never give them your take-off for free. If they insist on seeing my detailed material take-off list, I will allow it only after contract is signed. But I never show my pricing, NEVER

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Tom F.

I just had a deal similar to this with some customers wanting a custom home built. About a 600K house, which is pretty high-end in my area. I normally build spec just to avoid this kind of stuff. These nice folks came to me after seeing my other houses and liking the quality. I met with them twice and gave them ballpark numbers and talked about how the project would take place, and also the business end of it. After this, they give me the prints and want a detailed quote with about 4 different variations. I should have known better, but since I'm slow (in work, and brain function) , I spent about 30 hours on these quotes. I should mention that the only thing I asked from them was to tell me who else was bidding the job, and guess what, they wouldn't tell me.

After finishing the quote I met with them and gave them a summary sheet showing all the bottom line price numbers, along with a few details of the big allowance items, so that they could be apples to apples with other quotes. I also showed them, but did not give them, my Excel spreadsheet with all the detailed calculations. They were very impressed, but put off when I wouldn't give them a copy of the breakdown. Just could not understand why I wouldn't let them have a copy!!! Also of note is that my rough estimate sf price was within $5 of the detailed quote, which certainly should have given me some credibility.

Bottom line, I haven't heard a damn thing back from them, and the more time that goes by the better I like it that way. I'm to the point where I don't want to work for them if they do call. I should have trusted my gut and said no thanks when they asked for the detailed estimate. And if I get that situation again I will be making it clear that a detailed estimate like that will be at $75/hr to be credited back only on the full job contract.

Frustrating, but educational. On a positive note, in the last week there is much activity with folks looking at my spec houses. To Hell with custom work, anyway.

wink

double a thanks for that post it was helpful to me

philner

Along with alot of the other great advice above, find out who did the wall, look at the wall to check for quality, ask if the homeowners if they like the wall. Talk to the wall contractor for a reference of the homeowner. This guy sounds scary and I would run. but if the other guy worked out well and got paid etc... and he doesn't build docks maybe I would give it a shot like AA said, as long as I felt I could wind up being the low bidder. Alot of ifs, sorry, but I can't compete with alot of guys on price alone, my quality is too high, so I try to to recognize when thats going to be the deciding factor in a multiple bid situation and very politely decline. A better salesman would probably be able to sweet talk around it but I don't try, and I never break out my materials. phil

Michael Coulson

BOW OUT CASEY!

Michael Coulson

He Sounds Like A Lawyer!

Chris G

These are tough ones because your gut is obviously telling you something, but nothing is sticking out enough to make you run. Most of the perceived problems can be easily rationalized away, because none of the demands are that outrageous.
But they are accumulating. When is enough, enough?
He sounds like has some trust issues. People who have trust issues will never show you their full hand. So you will never know what they are really about, or what they really want.....CONGRATULATIONS!! YOU'RE THE OWNER OF A BRAND NEW PEPTIC ULCER!

Double A's is good. Perhaps you're not asking enough questions to get the answers you want. Or maybe you are, I dunno, just asking...

dirt diggler

Wait a minute ....


I had the initial reaction of some of you all - i.e. "Run!" ... but kinda got to thinking about it.


Casey, you haven't even met the guy to see what he wants for his dock. Granted, you have met him in the past regarding his wall. But that WAS a different project, different day.

and he DID call you back after explaining to you that someone else came in much lower on the wall. So you must have made SOME kind of impression on him.


Now, where you really screwed up, IMO - is with the email where you basically gave him an ultimatum:

but I would greatly appreciate some preference when it comes time to deciding which dock builder you ultimately chose.

you're basically saying here "I really want you to just tell me right now that you will work with ME, not consider anyone else - and THEN i'll work with you"

sorry ... doesn't work that way Casey.


And then you're going to just match someone else's price??

you're a f**kin SLUT at that point. Do you spit or swallow??




I don't blame him for his response - truthfully, he was a lot nicer than I would have been. Actually, I'm not sure if I would have responded.

And you're "shocked" by his reply??? Think about what you actually said, dude. It sounded really desperate, yet arrogant ALL in at the same time.


Kicker is - you haven't even talked about his [dock] job.


I think ya f**ked up kiddo. Don't be like that again. Because I can waltz right in now and talk to Bob, gladly show him my past work, work up an estimate for him - and have a shot at getting the job.

Glad you have enough work ... cuz I think you blew this one.

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Thanks in advance!!!