ConceLoc Speed Of Instalation?

BreyerConstruct

OK Guys,

My crew seems to be moving a bit slow, and If you don't mind, I could use some information.

The attached pix are of a deck they decked today.
I'd like to know how long you think it would have taken you, or your crew to install the decking.

It's about 20" above grade, 16" o.c., TimberTech EarthWood, and using TT's HFS.
Everyone who was on site has worked with TT's HFS before, and just finished a job higher off the ground, and on a 45 degree angle.

If you'd rather not share your instalation speed on the forums, I understand. I'm very pleased with the quality, but things seem to be moving a lot slower than they should be. I'll be chatting with the guys tomorrow morning, and I'd like to have some info, so I don't make an az out of them, if my expectations are way off.



Thanks guys,
~Matt

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BreyerConstruct

PS, it's about 400 sq. ft. installed...
130 to go

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rbsremodeling

2 days, 14.8 hours to be exact

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Garrett

Im right down the way from ya in elverson. If ya look at my post of Deck pics i did that deck in 14 days by myself . In your pics that is a day and a half for me. No problem. deck looks good so far

BreyerConstruct

Garrett,

We've got to get together for coffee sometime!
You say 1.5 days... like 12 hours including lunch setup/tear-down? or 12 hours of decking?

Rory,
Either you're really good at your records or you're pulling my leg!


I think my guys are double-teaming parts of the project- you know, one guy is always standing or watching.

I think things can be improved, and I need them to kinda police themselves, and to think things thru, so that as we move forward, John (brother) & I don't have to always be on site looking over their shoulders.

They're good guys, I just want to make sure we're being realistic with them, and that they're as "good" as I think they are.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent, and to get some feedback!
~Matt

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rbsremodeling

[quote=BreyerConstruct;422118]Garrett,

We've got to get together for coffee sometime!
You say 1.5 days... like 12 hours including lunch setup/tear-down? or 12 hours of decking?

Rory,
Either you're really good at your records or you're pulling my leg!


I think my guys are double-teaming parts of the project- you know, one guy is always standing or watching.

I think things can be improved, and I need them to kinda police themselves, and to think things thru, so that as we move forward, John (brother) & I don't have to always be on site looking over their shoulders.

They're good guys, I just want to make sure we're being realistic with them, and that they're as "good" as I think they are.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent, and to get some feedback!

-----------------------

Not pulling your leg. I track everything.
The hours I quoted was for the decking being layed only.

DO you need hours for anything else to gauge your guys??

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BuiltByMAC

Ground level deck -
stand on ground w/ decking in front of you - extra decking stacked on installed decking
without moving or stepping over any joists, place 5 clips on 5 joists - stretch a little for the outside ones
run 5 screws in
move over to next set of 5 joists
If you buy the 1750 ct. bucket, they'll give you a frisbee - if not, snag your own -
this is handy to hold both clips and screws, you can slide it down the installed decking w/o any scratching.

Should be able to install a 20' board (no cuts, blocking or post notches) w/ 16" oc joists in 8-10 min - 3' an hour.

My last deck (pic below), I did 384 sq. ft. in 7.5 hr. That included 224 sq. of butt joints and post notches. I installed the blocking for the butt joints and cut the decking ends when I installed the decking so that slowed me down a little for the first 8'. Once I hit the step up portion, I could lay down 16' decking w/ no post notches, blocking or end cuts so it went much faster.

First and last boards always take 3-4 times longer than anything in the field.

Elevated decks go slower - it took me 7 hr to lay down 240 sq. ft. on an elevated deck - full 20' boards, no butt joints but several post notches.

I usually install the seam board last - I can run all the decking ends wild and pop line and cut all ends at once. It's faster than cutting each end to fit (tighter looking line too). If you're cutting deck ends, keep your saw hanging on the joist behind you and cut ends while decking is sitting loose on the joists (so you don't have to move decking to sawhorses, cut, then move back to position)

A nail set is handy for when you run into a knot. Those little screw heads strip out before the screw gets fully set. "Coaxing" it w/ a nail set and hammer will get the screw down and the clip tight.

All that being said, I get into a zone on deck board day. No one talks to me, I've got my iPod blasting, I'm trying to earn my keep and I'm a damned expensive employee! I would not expect any employee of mine to be able (or willing) to move at my speed, 'cause I wouldn't be paying them what I pay myself. I run on my jobsite. I've got a sore back and sore fingers (those clips hurt after a day of pressing them into position) but that's all part of the job.

Mac

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Troutstreamguy

Tip that I've learned, but not speed related.
Make sure to drive the screws at a 45 degree angle. If you drive the screws at a steep angle then you won"t be able to cinch the boards and clips down tight. The result will be uneven spacing and the boards hitting the screw head.

Both of you guys look like you do great work

Greg Di

Hey... where's that guy that can screw off a deck in two hours when you need him???


You should ask him!

LOL

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novicepro

I'm wondering if your guys ran all the boards long then cut the ends at once with a straight edge guide or cut as they went along. I see one side unfinished and the ends are cut. That would slow it down......a lot.

BreyerConstruct

Boards are run long then cut, so that's working well.
From talking to the guys, it seems like our strugles are in two areas:
First, we've got a newer guy on the crew, so there was some "teaching" going on, which slows things down.
Second, there were a lot of damaged boards, so the groove got off, then everyone stopped when they saw how many were damaged, and as a group they worked thru the pile.

We talked with them this morning. We have good guys- we know we can trust them. It's the small things of efficiency that we need to improve. We talked thru a few ideas with them, and let them know that we need to improve, and that we're willing to work together with them to find the areas we can improve.
Also, the next rain day we have, we'll set up for a training day- watch install videos, re-read the install guides, etc. Just in case there's a way of doing things that we're missing.

Oh, FWIW, we had 3 guys on site from about 7:30 am till 5pm.
THere was load/unload, lunch, some framing finish (done by 10am), and a little bit of siding repair (don't ask- grr).
So it's about 6 hrs x 3 guys.

Thanks for the honest feedback and suggestions. I'm a bit scared to talk RadianceRail now!

~Matt

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Greg Di

The good news is that the straights go fast. I can do one in about 20 minutes. The stair sections are harder. I loathe them because there is too much guesswork/dry fitting involved to get the mounting brackets in the proper location. You can't locate then mount points until you've essentially built the entire railing. I've thought about templating, but no two sets of stairs are exactly the same, so it really wouldn't work.

The biggest issue is with the post sleeves in that they tend to roll around the sub posts. It is next to impossible to keep the faces of all the posts exactly parallel or square to each other across an entire deck. If the post is off 1 degree, your joints are open.

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Stone Mountain

A 3 man crew decked 400 sq ft in 6 hours? Not one of the crews I have could do that. How long did it take to frame it?
Years ago, most of my crews could. Todays younger guys simply can't.
In 1985, I used to figure a deck could be done at a rate of a thousand $$ a day. In other words, a $4000 deck would be 4 days, a $6000 deck would be 6 days.

Today, 23 years later, most of my crews can do about $12-1400 a day. Material is double, labour rates are double,, yet productivity is way down. I figure a deck should go in at the rate of $2000-$2500 a day. On the other hand, all my crews are paid a fixed fee per job, so how long it takes just doesn't matter financially. It does matter because I need to have more crews.

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BuiltByMAC

Maybe I'm missing part of the equation here...

16' deck boards sitting on 16"oc joists means 12, maybe 13, clips per board.
With no cuts - end cuts, blocking or post notches - On a ground level deck, one person should be able to install 12 clips in 3 minutes, +/-
Add 3 minutes to move next board into position = 6 minutes a board.
Add 2 minutes per board just because = 8 minutes a board.

Thats 7 boards an hour or ~50 sq. ft.

1 guy, 4 hours ~= 200 sq. ft.

Add in post notches, say 20 min. per notch (accuracy is not paramount because the post sleeve and skirt will hide ugly cuts)
That's 6 post notch outs in 2 hours (I'm being real generous in my time amounts here)
Another hour (more generosity) for making end cuts and moving material -

1 guy, 7 hours, 200 sq. ft of decking.


Breyer's got 3 guys at 7 hr. for 270 sq. ft.
RBS has 1 guy(I'm assuming) at 7.4 hr for 200 sq. ft
Garret has 1 guy(I'm assuming) at 3/4 day (6 hr?) for 200 sq. ft.
Stone Mtn's incredulous that 3 guys can deck 400 sq. ft. in 6 hr. - none of his guys can do that.
I track how much time I spend on each part of the project and after putting down 4-5 decks using the ConcealLocs, this last one took me 7.5 hr for 384 sq. ft., w/ 4 post notches and 8' of butt joints.

My thoughts, Breyer - if you've got that many damaged boards, you might talk with your supplier. Second, a stack of 90 boards could be sorted by 3 guys in 10-15 minutes. New guy? Have him set clips while the other two screw 'em down...or move material into position while the other two set clips and screw 'em down.
Maybe spend a day on the jobsite with your crew - they'll perform their best and you can see how much decking they can actually screw down in a set amount of time.

I'm not gloating, Breyer and Stone Mtn, please don't take it that way, but this is one of the main reasons why I've decided that going the employee route is not for me. I'm not a good people manager and I'd have problems with them if they weren't working to their full potential. It seems to me (and now I'm really just talking out my ass) that for an employee situation to work well, you've got to have systems in place for each aspect of the project. A set way of doing things so they can be trained to do them the same for each project. They'll get faster, more efficient, more productive and kick out higher quality. Look at your work triangle - work table, deck structure, material pile - how can they be set up the most efficiently? You've got a 3 man crew - do they all have specific jobs for each part of the project - 2 guys rolling joists, 1 guy cutting and installing blocking? Two guys screwing down decking, 1 guy feeding 'em material...or however best it works for your situation.

If you map out a system for each phase of the project, then you can map out 3 jobs for each system and streamline your guys. They'll have a better idea of what their exact job will be each day and hopefully, your productivity will go way up!

Good luck, man,

Mac

rbsremodeling

Matt

Mac Makes very good points and I will add a few

Your guys will vary rarely be more productive than you are. I have become to realize and accept this so my bids are based on their actual production hours not what I expect.

The most efficient worker is A one man crew as you add more guys you loose productivity and money. That deck you showed would be a one man job, anyone else there is a waste of money.

Make your guys fill out accurate time sheets for 90-120 days and actually see who does what,how well do they do it and who works well together.
That way you know who to assign where, who to pair up as needed and who kicks ass alone.

I don't know how your jobs are spaced but most of my guys work alone with a roaming helper who usuallly spends 2-3 hours a day on each and picks up materials and clean up as needed

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Garrett

the frisbee is a good tool to have as mac said. I just slide it along(wont scratch like the full bucket can) and much the same you get in the zone and run 3 guys seems like it should go really quick, one getting boards one setting clip and one runnin' screws. All that said i dont know why i have not got the last 3 decks i bid on. My quality is good i have office help( return calls right away) and my price is a little low compared to quality of work but i cant seem to land this bigger jobs only thing i can think of is its because i look a little young for 31

Stone Mountain

I'm embarrased. I'm supposed to be an expert at this industry, and yet the productivity I get out of my men doesn't match you guys. I'm going to have to pay more attention to exactly what my guys are doing out there.

I spoke to a couple of aquaintences who are in the same business. We talked about this decking time, and both have the same thoughts as me. Maybe Canadians are just naturally slower.

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Greg Di

FWIW, I can lay about 256 sf per day by myself. Joist hopping is the time killer.

I did a large ipe deck last year and had some extra hands on site to help lay the boards. I had three guys plus me. I had all three guys spaced out in the joist bays so they didn't have to move. Their reaches all overlapped so all I had to do was cut and seal the boards and feed them.

It worked out well, but I agree that most times, more than two people is just dead weight. Framing can be done in sync with one guy doing one thing productive and the other guy setting up the next step or finishing the last step, but the trimming has to be done in order. You can't start cutting the railings until the the deck is down. Heck, you can't cut the railings until the sleeves are on and plumbed.

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Bone Saw

I'm with mac on zoning out while laying decking
conceal locks and zoning out while running segment pieces: I'll run the "fill" first long into where the segment peices go, than cut and chamfer. slot the endgrains of those boards as needed, lock in the segment border, than cut off all the tabs with a dremel cutoff wheel (making sure to give the deck a good sweepdown and hosing so as not to get rust spckles everywhere). the next succesive "fill's" get cut and chamfered each board (8-12 seconds/board) scribe, 18v saw and japanese plane at the ready

far as zoning and technique, I like to walk the joist/unfastened boards, and kick the boards in, havent had a problem yet unlike eb ty. board locked in, I'll reach in my pouch and grab a handfull of locs, walk down the board dropping one near every joist, cut and chamfer next board, handfull of screws while walking joist and kicking boards (which by the way is the optimal side to be screwing from) and rolling screws in my fingers (like handnailing cedar shakes)
400sq' + in 2-2.5 days solo with segments is totally reasonable once you're in your groove.
as an asside, don't know about others, but I always pull layout (every other board) and snap lines just like laying shingles and work from the wall out, leaving knats ass to be planed off the outer rim.

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bjg5240

I think CONCEALoc & speed together is an oxymoron. The finished product is nice, but it's a slow going fastener system IMO. I installed (solo) 540sq ft (27x20) 48" above grade and it took me 3 (7hr) days.

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