Business Ethics

thefencepost

As a fence contractor in NC, and having other businesses over the years, I know there are crooked people out there, but this one pissed me off.

I wrote this article on my blog called: Call Another Fence Company To Get Measurements? and have gotten such a huge amount of hits on it some leaving comments, others talking about it on other forums I had to bring it to this forum to see how the contractors here feel about it.

My question would be, should I not be writing about scum like this on my blog? I ask because one person pointed out that my site seems negative lately. I certainly don't want to put that feeling out there, and I guess I felt like I had to defend my policies for multiple methods of sales/installations because this contractor I wrote about ( I never sited his name or his company) has about 15 websites in which everyone of them boasts of how he can do the work cheaper because he does not do onsite estimates (something I completely disagree with). Fine with me, I tried to explain in an earlier article I wrote why I thought giving free onsite estimates to my customers worked better for me. He then wrote about me (using my company name) on his site trashing me as a "salesman" who will say anything to sell the job (completely untrue as I recommend getting at least 3 estimates to all my customers and never try high pressure closing methods).

Anyway, if any of you have time please read my article and give me an honest opinion of my writing about it.

I will be leaving this subject alone on my site in the future, as I don't want my site to be negative, but at the same time I feel people should know about it. Make any sense?

Thanks

__________________
Keith R. Bloemendaal
Raleigh Fence Contractors, LLC
Fence Advice

Mike Finley

Personally I think you're way out in left field on this whole thing. So some contractor said to your customer fax me the other bid and I will beat it without ever showing up on site and you're upset.

If that's the worst your competitors are doing and this is what defines "scum" in your area, you're working in some sort of holy land.

If you are meeting your customes and measuring and they are taking you FREE work and giving it to a competor to beat and it upsets you, start charging a fee for your estimate or stop breaking down your estimates in a way that gives the customers measurement information.

This is a tiny issue my man. I'm going to face a bigger one in the next five minutes when I try to figure out what I am going to order for lunch.

rbsremodeling

Keith: It is time to start charging a fee for estimates


Mike: order the chicken salad sandwich hold the pickles

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Stone Mountain

Keith, I am not absolutely sure that this is the sort of thing you should put on your website, but if it works for you, who am I to argue.
Regarding the ethics; well that can be sort of...fluid. I have had people tell me many times that they've called certain other companies who have told them the same thing, and that they (the customer) would not have anything to do with the whole idea. On the other hand, I have seen a few of my designs turn up on other companie's web sites, so I know it happens.
Had one last summer right next to a permitted deck I built. The other guy used my plan in its entirety, but built it very poorly. Since I was meeting the inspector on site to approve my deck (it passed), I meerely commented on the other one. The inspector eventually issued an "order to comply", which means the deck had to be broguth up to code or torn down. 1/2 of it had to be dissasembled anyway to fix it!
As they say, revenge is a dish best served cold!

On the other hand, here's the fluid part.
I have sometimes been asked to quote on a job where the customer already has a plan by someone else.. Recently, a customer sent me a plan by another contractor via email, along with pictures of his yard and house. I was asked to price it out and give him my "best shot".
According to your blog, I was doing exactly what your competitor is doing, but at the direct request of the client.
Should I have refused? Insisted on a site visit? If anyone was being unethical, it was the cleint, as he was using a plan he presumably got of free to get other prices? I don't think I was wrong. I did correct the plan and spiff it up a bit. Didn't get the job though.

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www.fenceanddeck.ca

BuiltByMAC

I posted this on your blog too -

Prequalify your potential clients on the phone before you meet w/ them - if price is their only concern, they're not your ideal client.

At your meeting, show them pics of past work, give them references of past clients, let them know why your bid might be higher than some hack's (quality, materials, site cleanliness, lack of change orders, etc)...the rest is up to them. If you've presented yourself and your company well, they'll choose you to do the work.
Don't leave them w/ a breakdown of your bid. You can talk about it at the meeting but take your materials w/ you when you leave (except your bid).

Don't concern yourself w/ bottom feeders. They will always be around. And there will always be people who will hire them.

Mac

curapa

I myself will occasionally give fence quotes without seeing the yard. After I take the customers info down and get an idea of what type of fence they are looking for I will ask if they already have the footage or if they would like me to visit with them to measure and give a free estimate. I do not trash talk about people that only do onsite estimates because I do both. I do not ask who measured their yard but I do check that it has been measured properly. I can play the salesman part over the phone, I don't have to show up in person for that.

Even though your competitor is unethical he is right, onsite estimates cost us money, that money is added to our overhead and affects our prices. If I give a price out over the phone and when I arrive to the property to sign the contract and see there are a few bushes or small trees in the way I generally do not charge extra. I take 5 minutes, start my chainsaw and get em' out of the way.

Normally the only things that can be a problem with a fence are making sure the meters aren't being obstructed, property lines and homeowners association approvals.


Keep in mind this only applies to standard style fencing. Upgraded styles and material get an onsite estimate fo sho.

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www.ParkerFenceandDeck.com

Chris G

I think it's a very well written piece. Your blog won't become a bastion of negativity anytime soon, (unless you make negative posts everyday).

There is nothing wrong with sounding off once in awhile. It establishes you as a human being and separates you from the rest of the herd - You know, the 99% of contractors who post recycled formulated drivel on there websites. It's 2009, and you won't survive if you insist on being a poseur with bombastic mission statements and stock photos. No buys that ****. It's laughable.

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rbsremodeling

I have taken many bids with dimensions on them sent to me by home owners and use them to do bids with out going to the site.

If a guy went out there and did all the work for me and did not charge a fee for his time that's on him.

I don't give all that information out without a check and design agreement.

Either charge for the estimate or hold back enough information that you specs can't be shopped out.

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thefencepost

I appreciate all the feedback guys.

Just to be clear, I am not concerned about this guy beating my price, as I could care less about that. Check out craigslist and you can find a dozen handymen that can beat my price by 2 or 3 bucks a foot.

What pissed me off, is the fact that he ONLY does business this way and never even sees the project or the customer until after they have hired him. Whether you know it or not, what your competitors do leaves an impression on potential customers that the rest of us are just crooked. So I never like to here about customers being ripped off or being treated unfairly by any trade contractor.

A perfect example of this is a fence contractor that recently filed bankruptcy here had taken over $14k in deposits and never built their fences. The news was all over it and myself and another fence contractor I know have since contacted the news channel and offered to donate the labor to get these customers the fences they have already paid for 50% of (the 50% they hadn't paid yet should cover the materials they need, so they will get a fence at the same price they had agreed to.)

There are multiple reasons we decided to help these customers (we will only be doing 2 per month until we have built all of them) but most important was to let consumers know we are not all bad apples. I am not one that believes we should just turn our heads when we see the little old lady being robbed on the corner (OK that is an exaggeration).

All in all, thanks for the comments (other than the start charging for my estimates one, that is completely not going to work, I would be out of business within 2 months because the phone would NOT ring).

I will continue doing business the way I always have, this guy will get weeded out.

PS: If ordering lunch is a tough decision for you, I guess you must not have any work going on!

__________________
Keith R. Bloemendaal
Raleigh Fence Contractors, LLC
Fence Advice

Stone Mountain

Mr. Fence Post, I see that you have only 25 posts so far. Your reference to Mike Finlay not having work because he has time to order lunch is ever so slightly off base.
If you do a little searching on him you'll find that you are quite far off when it comes to his business acumen!

Anyway, on a better note, welcome to the board. You WILL learn a lot!

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Residential Deck Specialist: Vist our Website
www.fenceanddeck.ca

Mike Finley

Can't is all in your head.

Just like can't isn't in your competitors head. He said I'm going to come up with a way to never measure another fence before I have sold it ever again. In fact I think I going to get my competitors to do my measuring for me.

Now you're stuck on how this is an ethics issue. Somewhere you believe there are some tablets in Raleigh that list the 10 commandments that say everybody has to do business the way you do. You believe that your steps are the steps everyone else has to take or they are being unethical.

You're in business you aren't in the fatherhood.

Somebody has raised the bar in your market, somebody has changed the nice good ole boy, aw shucks, lets share some sweet tea on the porch, fence selling game.

thefencepost

Thanks for the welcome.

I may only have 25 posts on this forum, but I have been in the construction industry for 20yrs this year and whether or not I post 10,000 times here shouldn't mean that someone who has can make silly remarks about his lunch decision being tougher than my business decisions and think I won't say something back.

My comment to Mike came as sarcasm in reply to his sarcasm, which was obviously of no help to me, as I take my work seriously. I believe if he can dish it out, he can certainly take it. If not, then keep the smart comments to yourself.

I am sure there are some on this forum that I can learn from, I guess you just have to weed through the BS to find those that really want to help.

I choose not to have any respect for people that take what I considered to be a legitimate question on a forum for contractors and make a comment like Mr Water Closet Mover did. He can choke on his lunch for all I care.

If he would have read my post, he would have seen that the question had to do with whether or not the article I wrote made my website seem negative, I didn't ask if I should charge for estimates, or if I should worry about lunch. I asked a specific question, which some people on here answered with honesty and criticism (which I certainly can reflect on their answers and see their point) but the sarcasm was uncalled for in my opinion so I responded likewise.

I am not one to just sit back and take punches without firing some myself, if that is out of line, sorry.

If this is the wrong forum for a contractor to ask questions about an article like the one I wrote, then I will look for another forum to ask my question on. As I see it, this is a contractor forum, I am a contractor, I had a question that seemed logical so I asked. I got some good responses, even a comment on the blog and I got some sarcasm from someone that must have been having a bad day (hopefully all 10k+ posts from him aren't as sarcastic) and it struck me as someone that gets a kick out making someone else look stupid, I don't play that game.

If I am wrong about this forum and it is some private club where you are not aloud to speak unless spoken to, or prim and proper like some country club or Harvard club, just say so. Otherwise, if you want to dish it out, be ready to take it back. Seems only fair to me.

Hopefully, this will end my initiation process, and we can get on with having a forum about contractors, business, marketing, employees, accounting etc...

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Keith R. Bloemendaal
Raleigh Fence Contractors, LLC
Fence Advice

Mike Finley

Wow.

The title to this thread is business ethics. Did you title it that because you are questioning your business ethics for writing your blog post about another contractor? Or did you title it that because another contractor has turned the tables on you and your reaction is he is unethical?

So I don't believe addressing your title to this thread is off topic.

I also read your blog before I replied to your post, it's filled with the same old stuff you always see from somebody who thinks their way is the only way to do business and anybody who deviates and gets one over them gets the scarlet letter treatment for upsetting thier apple cart. You could sum your entire blog attitude with "HOW DARE YOU!!???!!"

You've been in the business for 20 years and nobody better damn well do anything different then the way you say it should be done.



I know, I know, I'm way off base and how dare I??? It's all me and not you. You're not the one who's blog is being accused of being negative. You're not the one in some sort of ego driven cyber battle posting back and forth with this guy trashing each other..

Naw buddy, it's not you. It's me.

curapa

I agree, I will soon be taking my measuesments off of my proposals that I submit to clients,

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www.ParkerFenceandDeck.com

deckman22

Fencepost comes out of the corner, he throws a jab at Mike, Mike fires a back a left hook followed by a right cross, Fencepost is looking weak in the knees but the bell rings. Will he be able to continue in round 2?

Serious Fencepost, he was not offbase, matter of fact I gotta agree.

Mike is businessman in the remodeling business, you sound like a tradesman in business doing all the work yourself. Your competion sounds like a businessman like Mike who sells jobs & subs out the work. I would suggest you learn how to separate yourself from guys like that & not worry about what the other guys is doing or how he's doing it. You may as well accept the fact he's going to continue to do things his way, which seems to be working for him.

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Deckman
www.alscustomdecks.com

curapa

I wouldn't stand for it. I'd take my 7mm out off the closet and eliminate any competitor that even thought about slandering my name like that and any naysayers that didn't agree with my point.

Kill em all and then you'll be the only Raleigh fence contractor left.

Theres my one year business plan to success

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www.ParkerFenceandDeck.com

wizendwizard

Thats off thinking Curapa.

Even if he killed all of the legitimate competition, all of the Jose Jalapeno's would come crawling out of the woodwork and he'd still have the same battles going on.

Then he'd have to learn an entire NEW way to do business.

Fencepost, first let me say welcome to CT. And I mean that sincerely.

Here's the problem. You presented yourself on your blog as trashing your competetor for doing something unheard of.

But wait, thats not unheard of. Happens all the time. Anyway, You called him out and he fired the better shot from the way it sounds.

In todays world the old fashioned way of doing business is out. The information age has brought with it a new kind of customer. The customer doesn't WANT to meet the Contractor face to face anymore. All they care about are the numbers. Usually the lowest one. This sucks but it's the way the world turns.

My advice, let your buddy do his business his way. Don't give customers all of your numbers. Don't even hint at them. All they need is the bottom line price until you have a signed contract in your hand.

I'm done for now and I hope you remove that slam from your blog. It really does make you look bad to trash your competition.

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eastend

ok, I read your blog article. You asked for honest opinions of you writing about this on your blog.
It sounds like sour grapes to me; like "daddy, he's not playing fair!"
Probably best left without comment.
You know it goes on, you said it's not something you would do, but writing about it sounds like whining about your competitor cheating.

JBMagi

If I have a customer that is going to shop around I always try this. They are more than welcome to shop but I ask to take a look at the other estimates with them and present mine only after they have gotten the others. I know that my price is extremely fair for the quality of work I provide. This way I can weed out any low ballers as they are not providing the same work that I do.

thefencepost

Actually, I spend 90% of my time selling and estimating jobs, bookkeeping, marketing, project managing, scheduling, etc... and most all of my projects are subcontracted out. I have no time to install my own projects anymore.

My apologies for the rude comments.

I have accepted the fact that the other guy does business the way he does it, doesn't mean I have to like it. I think it is wrong the way he goes about it, not because he does estimates over the phone, but because he takes advantage of other contractors in his trade. No worries though, it will catch up to him.

Still think the lunch comment was off base, but hey, I am a big boy I can handle it.

__________________
Keith R. Bloemendaal
Raleigh Fence Contractors, LLC
Fence Advice