Building bombproof stairs - Page 4 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 11:24 AM

I tend to use wood that is "unrottable". Here in CT, you have to. If it's ipe or some other hardwood, I slather the dadoes and the ends of the treads w/ anchorseal. You don't have to dismantle the whole staircase to replace a tread, the dadoes extend to the back of the stringer. Just unscrew, slide out old one, slide in new one, screw. Besides, my work is so awesome that you'll never have to replace a tread anyway!

And why, in your opinion, should you have to glue the treads? I can see it on interior stairs for squeakage purposes, but outside this doesn't happen.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

I tend to use wood that is "unrottable". Here in CT, you have to. If it's ipe or some other hardwood, I slather the dadoes and the ends of the treads w/ anchorseal. You don't have to dismantle the whole staircase to replace a tread, the dadoes extend to the back of the stringer. Just unscrew, slide out old one, slide in new one, screw. Besides, my work is so awesome that you'll never have to replace a tread anyway!

And why, in your opinion, should you have to glue the treads? I can see it on interior stairs for squeakage purposes, but outside this doesn't happen.

What is "unrottable" wood?

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 12:58 PM

Pressure Treated. The whole concept behind PT is that the chemical in it makes it impervious to rot and insect infestation, as I'm sure you already know. I see other guys on this site who do decks w/ Doug. Fir. There is no way I could do that in CT. The climate here is too wet and harsh for about 5 months out of the year. Doug. Fir would certainly start to rot pretty quickly in these parts. Also, we got carpenter ants around here that would make quick work of it. In addition to the regular maintenance required of decks, customers don't want to have to spray for bugs every year, too. Even Cedar here (because of lack of good grades) starts to rot within a few years. And the ants like to gobble that up, too. Pretty much the only options available here are PT, composite, vinyl, and dense tropical hardwoods like Ipe that are naturally very "unrottable" and that the bugs don't like.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

Pressure Treated. The whole concept behind PT is that the chemical in it makes it impervious to rot and insect infestation, as I'm sure you already know. I see other guys on this site who do decks w/ Doug. Fir. There is no way I could do that in CT. The climate here is too wet and harsh for about 5 months out of the year. Doug. Fir would certainly start to rot pretty quickly in these parts. Even Cedar here (because of lack of good grades) starts to rot within a few years. Pretty much the only options available here are PT, composite, vinyl, and dense tropical hardwoods like Ipe that are naturally very "unrottable".

The doug fir that they are using is PT.
That is the standard out there, like SYP is here.
Maybe you didn't know, PT does not penetrate very deeply.
Any cut must be field treated (i.e. Cuprinol or some such) to maintain resistance.
If you check any treaters instructions, the warranty is void if cuts aren't field treated.
Finally there is no rot proof wood.

Wood comes from trees.
Trees grow out of the earth.
As soon as you kill the tree, it begins the process of returning to the earth.
All you can do is take measures to slow the process.
I'm hoping that the new "micronized copper" treating has better penetration, but I'm not gonna count on it til it is time proven.

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 01:30 PM

I wasn't aware that they pressure treat D.F. out there. Having said that though, I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever seen rot or bugs in PT, even on decks that are 25 years old that have never been sealed. The chemical is forced into every single cell of the wood, all the way to the middle, even in the middle of the bundle. Somebody back me up here. You are very wrong in thinking that the treatment is just a surface coating, sorry, pal. BTW, Cuprinol is about as worthless as Thomson's Water Seal. I'm not trying to butt heads with you here, but you are grossly misinformed.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

I wasn't aware that they pressure treat D.F. out there. Having said that though, I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever seen rot or bugs in PT, even on decks that are 25 years old that have never been sealed. The chemical is forced into every single cell of the wood, all the way to the middle, even in the middle of the bundle. Somebody back me up here.

I think you missed the memo somehow

Do a little home work, and it will come up!
I'm not making this up just to give you a hard time, it's the truth.
Haven't you ever looked at a cut end? Or the dadoes you cut?
It ain't green all the way through!
The treaters don't even come close to claiming that the solution penetrates "every cell".
Quite the contrary my friend, they specifically tell you to treat all cuts.

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 02:12 PM

I don't know where you get your lumber from. Could you tell me so that I don't order from there? All of the millions and millions of board feet I have purchased over the years have been treated all the way through. The "pressure" in pressure treating means that they "press" the ACQ all the way into the wood. Dude, I can't even believe I'm having this argument.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

I don't know where you get your lumber from. Could you tell me so that I don't order from there? All of the millions and millions of board feet I have purchased over the years have been treated all the way through. The "pressure" in pressure treating means that they "press" the ACQ all the way into the wood. Dude, I can't even believe I'm having this argument.

Millions and millions?

Do you know what the "chemicals" are?
Do you know how they "press" them in?
Have you ever seen this done?
Talked to anyone that does it?
Again, have you ever looked at a cut end of a treated 2X or 4X?

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 02:48 PM

BTW, it's a pain when you go back and edit your posts after the fact.
Makes it hard to carry on a conversation.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

And why, in your opinion, should you have to glue the treads? I can see it on interior stairs for squeakage purposes, but outside this doesn't happen.

Because they are outside, and it rains and stuff.

The wood "moves".
It shrinks and swells and stuff.

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 03:05 PM

Okay, I've located the source of our tiff. I looked on one of the treaters sites, and this is what they say:

They say that some of the western species of woods that they treat may not be penetrated all the way though, and that end sealing may be required. All of the PT around here is SYP. I don't know the exact molecular structure of ACQ or how exactly they get it into the wood, nor do I care. The "millions and millions" was of course an exaggeration. The only thing I know is that in the 200 or so decks I've built, after every single one of the "millions and millions" of cuts I've made, when I look (and I'm not blind) I can clearly see that the wood is TREATED ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!!

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

Okay, I've located the source of our tiff. I looked on one of the treaters sites, and this is what they say:

They say that some of the western species of woods that they treat may not be penetrated all the way though, and that end sealing may be required. All of the PT around here is SYP. I don't know the exact molecular structure of ACQ or how exactly they get it into the wood, nor do I care. The "millions and millions" was of course an exaggeration. The only thing I know is that in the 200 or so decks I've built, after every single one of the "millions and millions" of cuts I've made, when I look (and I'm not blind) I can clearly see that the wood is TREATED ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!!

kitmando · 11-21-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

Okay, I've located the source of our tiff. I looked on one of the treaters sites, and this is what they say:

They say that some of the western species of woods that they treat may not be penetrated all the way though, and that end sealing may be required. All of the PT around here is SYP. I don't know the exact molecular structure of ACQ or how exactly they get it into the wood, nor do I care. The "millions and millions" was of course an exaggeration. The only thing I know is that in the 200 or so decks I've built, after every single one of the "millions and millions" of cuts I've made, when I look (and I'm not blind) I can clearly see that the wood is TREATED ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!!

I live in Hawaii and every piece of framing lumber is PT, plywood, beams everything. If you are not careful with exposed cuts, putting wood against concrete (like stair stringers) you will get rot. Even though everything is PT, we still treat exposed cuts. Having said that, the stairs (exterior) that last the longest are made of 4x12 stringers with 4x12 treads mortised in about 1 1/2", and nothing touching any concrete.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitmando

I live in Hawaii and every piece of framing lumber is PT, plywood, beams everything. If you are not careful with exposed cuts, putting wood against concrete (like stair stringers) you will get rot. Even though everything is PT, we still treat exposed cuts. Having said that, the stairs (exterior) that last the longest are made of 4x12 stringers with 4x12 treads mortised in about 1 1/2", and nothing touching any concrete.

Curious, what species of wood is your PT over there?

kitmando · 11-21-2007, 03:25 PM

Most framing lumber is doug fir #2 and better.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 03:36 PM

Makes sense, thanks.

I've heard about some kind of big tree you have over there, that they dig up long dead ones and sell for a fortune?
Know which one I'm talking about?

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 03:55 PM

Is this my initiation into the forum or something? In Hawaii, it's probably some of these western species they are talking about. Seriously, the vast majority of the decks around me are PT. And like I said earlier, I've never ever seen rot or bugs in the PT around here. And nobody that I know around here ever seals the ends. Not the people I learned from, or any of the other local builders that I know. Old farts and youngsters alike; no one does it. It is an unheard of process here. I just cleaned and sealed a deck that the homeowner didn't maintain whatsoever for 15 years. Granted, the wood was cupped and cracked all over the place, but there was zero rot and zero bug damage. I tear down old and busted PT decks all the time, and have yet to see any rot or bug damage. I guess PT SYP is the way to go, huh?
Also, there really is no need to glue the treads in place. With expansion and contraction, the glue is invariably going to fail down the road, anyway. I always find it's better to let outdoor wood breathe and move as it wants. If you think that you're going to stop wood outside from expanding and contracting, I think that you've been breathing in too many glue fumes. Neolitic, I came here so that I can simply give and get some ideas and tips. I'm really not interested in getting into a genitalia contest with you.

neolitic · 11-21-2007, 04:00 PM

Nor do I with you.
http://www.contractortalk.com/f50/pt-lunber-poll-29700/

Ahren · 11-21-2007, 04:37 PM

Kitmando,

Those are some seriously beefy frikkin' stairs that you are describing!

kitmando · 11-21-2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahren

Kitmando,

Those are some seriously beefy frikkin' stairs that you are describing!

I have had to replace a lot of exterior stairs in my day, and the ones that I have replaced with the 4x12 material are showing no signs of rot. Also I can have a long run with no flex or bounce. Almost bomb proof.