Brick House - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Quinn · 10-13-2008, 02:18 PM

Got a customer tha wants a 16x71 ft. deck.2 story new brick house. They would like brick columns to support the deck. Any advice on best way to support the deck at the house connection?

mickeyco · 10-13-2008, 02:31 PM

Real brick (structural) or veneer? 2 story house, is the deck going to be off of the 2nd story? I wouldn't use brick columns to support the deck, wood, concrete or steel with a brick facade.

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MALCO.New.York · 10-13-2008, 02:54 PM

Steel for the posts faced in brick for starters........

Wait for Mac and GregDi to chime in.

redwood · 10-13-2008, 03:18 PM

That's going to make those first story rooms very dark.

mickeyco · 10-13-2008, 03:18 PM

Just noticed the door on the second floor, so it's safe to assume this is a second story deck (that Mickey sure is a sharp one

).

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concretemasonry · 10-13-2008, 03:37 PM

Hanging a deck on a brick veneer home is never easy, cheap or recommended. A free stading deck is the design to use considering the liability (mosture, rot, leakage, etc.), the cost of double flashing and possible code problems. When you have a substantial home, the liability goes up quickly.

The deck is what makes it dark. The interior columns could be 4x4 or 6x6 (wood or stel) and do not have to be covered with brick, which could possibly push the columnssize up to 14x14. Exterior columns venerred with the same brick would actually tie everything together from an appearance standpoint.

You can always go full wood, hang the deck from the rim (never with lag screws), tear off part of the veneer to flash and proudly show off the rustic wood.

It is all up to the what the owner wants to pay and what the designer comes up with.

**BuiltByMAC** · 10-13-2008, 05:12 PM

Posts 2' out from house supporting a beam that runs in front of the chimney - you may have to use as many as 6 posts to avoid setting posts in front of doors or windows and keep symmetry. You could use 4x4s if you're dropping 6 in the ground to make the posts less bulky.
Since this is new construction, you're going to have to go deep with your footings to find virgin dirt.

Bummer this part of the project couldn't have been thought of and prepared for when the house was being built. Not a lot of foresight there... hell, they could've installed the deck ledger board when they were facing it w/ the brick.

I'd run decking at an angle to joists to help w/ stability for a 2nd floor freestanding deck.
For a deck that size, with the difficulties of tying into brick or making it freestanding, I'd tap an engineer's brain as well.
Before you spend hours on design, make sure your clients have 40-70K to throw at this project. And charge for your design time.

product like TT Dryspace or similar would brighten up the underside of the deck, just by adding the white surface...plus makes the area under the deck more desirable.

Have them think about having a handrail right outside the windows on the two rounded corners of the house - gonna have to work to make it look nice from the inside of the house.

Then once you get the project, post pics of the build.

Good luck with it,

Mac

(I was gonna give you some crap about the 2nd story deck comment, Mickey, but ya beat me to it!)

s. donato · 10-13-2008, 06:12 PM

through bolts is the only way i would do it.

its getting to the point any second floor deck with sidings that i can't gain access to the rim of the second level i am using through bolts almost exclusively now. its messier and takes more time but i fell it is going to be a change coming to the building code sooner or later so i might as well start doing it now(when i feel its prudent to do so) so i am experienced with it when i am going to be forced to do it.

i am in the middle of witting an article for JLC on how to do through bolts and gain access when dealing with finished spaces.

there is two ways... cutting a hole in the floor in the second floor or in the ceiling on the first floor. if you have carpet up stairs go the floor route. its easier in my opinion. the last stone house deck i did i couldn't do that so i went through the ceiling in the lower level.

i use a 4" hole saw drilled into the ceiling at every location i need to do a through bolt. this can be a pest to patch later but if you have a good drywall guy its not that hard. the better way would be to cut a 1' strip of drywall out of the ceiling and then patch in later that is easier to deal with drywall wise.

since we were framing with our joists parallel to the house we were able to put less bolts in then your standard ledger but did need extras bolts where our flush mounted beams tied into the "ledger". on the inside of the house i used 4x4 and 6x6 steel plates on the back of the bolts so we had plenty of pull through strength.

i would also recommend 6x6 posts and make your spans fall not in the view of the windows like the others said.

curapa · 10-13-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s. donato

through bolts is the only way i would do it.

its getting to the point any second floor deck with sidings that i can't gain access to the rim of the second level i am using through bolts almost exclusively now. its messier and takes more time but i fell it is going to be a change coming to the building code sooner or later so i might as well start doing it now(when i feel its prudent to do so) so i am experienced with it when i am going to be forced to do it.

i am in the middle of witting an article for JLC on how to do through bolts and gain access when dealing with finished spaces.

there is two ways... cutting a hole in the floor in the second floor or in the ceiling on the first floor. if you have carpet up stairs go the floor route. its easier in my opinion. the last stone house deck i did i couldn't do that so i went through the ceiling in the lower level.

i use a 4" hole saw drilled into the ceiling at every location i need to do a through bolt. this can be a pest to patch later but if you have a good drywall guy its not that hard. the better way would be to cut a 1' strip of drywall out of the ceiling and then patch in later that is easier to deal with drywall wise.

since we were framing with our joists parallel to the house we were able to put less bolts in then your standard ledger but did need extras bolts where our flush mounted beams tied into the "ledger". on the inside of the house i used 4x4 and 6x6 steel plates on the back of the bolts so we had plenty of pull through strength.

i would also recommend 6x6 posts and make your spans fall not in the view of the windows like the others said.

Are you reffering to bolts through the rim board the brick, then ledger? If so your bolts would be in holes drilled through the brick, the brick would in turn be supporting the deck. I can understand attaching a free standing deck to a home to gain stability in a few points. But sandwiching the outer ledger between non strucural brick with a 1" gap between the actual structural member does no make sence to me.
Can you clarrify your methods?
Also, why go through all of the trouble when you can freestand your deck to be very strong all on its own' without flashing.

daystoshort · 10-13-2008, 09:26 PM

id make it a free standing deck.set some steel posts in concreat.this way you dont have the problem with water or haveing to put some type of flashing.then just brick around the posts.

curapa · 10-13-2008, 09:39 PM

There is an awful lot of brick on that house already, woodwork would set off the bottom better than brick columns.

s. donato · 10-14-2008, 12:43 AM

curapa,

your right i would only do that on solid structure ;-) thanks for bringing that up - around here we have lots block buildings that we attach second floor porches to the block. this is mainly in the historic districts where houses are 100+ yo. some of these houses don't have rims to tie into you just have exterior-block-furring-drywall.

how would you make it free standing so close to the house? we would be required to go to the footing depth of the basements which can be 8-12 feet down - not something i want to do on a regular basis. i would agree freestanding is always best, but if budgets don't allow for all that footing work how would you sell the job? if the OP is not required to do the same then i would make it freestanding.

after second glance it looks like the basement is the lower level OP may not need to go to nuts and the OP may just look fine with a free standing... as long as the HO goes for it.

i agree there is enough brick on that house. some nice wood working or composite work would really make the back of the house pop.

curapa · 10-14-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s. donato

curapa,

your right i would only do that on solid structure ;-) thanks for bringing that up - around here we have lots block buildings that we attach second floor porches to the block. this is mainly in the historic districts where houses are 100+ yo. some of these houses don't have rims to tie into you just have exterior-block-furring-drywall.

how would you make it free standing so close to the house? we would be required to go to the footing depth of the basements which can be 8-12 feet down - not something i want to do on a regular basis. i would agree freestanding is always best, but if budgets don't allow for all that footing work how would you sell the job? if the OP is not required to do the same then i would make it freestanding.

after second glance it looks like the basement is the lower level OP may not need to go to nuts and the OP may just look fine with a free standing... as long as the HO goes for it.

i agree there is enough brick on that house. some nice wood working or composite work would really make the back of the house pop.

Ditto what Mac said on the building method, If their budget doesn't allow for it to be done right then I would suggest scaling back the size of the deck or waiting until they can afford the whole project. I would try to stress the issues that other jacklegs would ignore to get the price down and explain the value for the dollar amount I am asking.

The main problem I come across is that people have no idea of what even a small project should cost. I sometimes get funny looks when I give $2000+/- quotes for 150' of stockade fence.

s. donato · 10-14-2008, 11:40 AM

price is one of the hardest things to explain to people. try to educate the HO so they understand the severity of it being done wrong. but the problem is there is always someone else out there that will do it for less. especially in this economy.

i have past on a few jobs over the last year b/c the HO couldn't afford me and i later found out they highered some other people to do the work for less then i wanted.

i would be careful walking away from a job you want... you may want to help the HO get financing to afford you rather then just saying call me when you saved more money. i find that if you walk away you will not be back.

concretemasonry · 10-14-2008, 12:47 PM

You would have a hard time getting through bolts past a halfway intellegent inspector if the also go through the brick.

Simply put, there is not enough vertical strength to support half of the deck.

The brick is just a veneer and is not loadbearing. Every code says you cannot support loads on masonry veneer.

Even if you go through a rim joist, the distance from there to a ledger is too far and the bolt will bent an fail during a big family party.

If it is built without being permitted, you have no proof of adequacy and the insurance will not cover the damages. The only thing left is to go after the contractor that was responsible for the deck and he may lose his wife, first born child and his dog.

It is a shame that a home that size was built with little planning, resulting in a costly deck, that still may have problems. It is obvious they knew there was going to be a deck (the 2nd floor slider), but just did not think or plan when it could have been easier.

Quinn - If you have troublesome competitor, why not give the home owners his name, so he can keep busy with the challenge and the liability. - If you take the job, make sure it is a signed plan, permitted and make sure it is inspected to protect yourself.

Greg Di · 10-14-2008, 01:00 PM

That's a beast of a job any way you slice it.

I'm not privy to meeting the HOs, but I see a big house, no landscaping, and a MAJOR detail (the deck) omitted by the builder or the HO in some convoluted way to save a dollar up front. There is no way a house THAT large should have been built without a deck or a realistic patio. Someone along the way was cheap. If these HOs are the original owners, then you can read into what you're dealing with.

As Mac said, before you invest anything in this project, tell them due to the time and effort required to put a together a detailed proposal, you'll require a D/B agreement and fee. Let them know now, they are looking at a minimum $40k for a bare bones job.

If they flinch, you just saved a lot of time and aggravation. If they want to move ahead, then at least you are getting paid to do the proposal and you know they are serious.

John Hyatt · 10-14-2008, 05:52 PM

John agrees with Greg and most all of you but Mickie gets my vote for most likely to get me to buy him a Bud Lite Lime.

I am not kidding that house looks just like one I bid a deck job for several years ago same kinda deal I went thru all the things we talked about the ho talked them over with the GC bang bang I was outa there the deck went up with lag shields into the brick/posts landing on the 3 1/2'' slab out back. I havent been back but I just might if I have the gate code around someplace.

The deck is like 20 ' in the air makes you wonder. J.

MALCO.New.York · 10-14-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redwood

That's going to make those first story rooms very dark.

The "First Story" is the top floor.

The lower story IS below grade.

Probably "Recreational" space and the like.

**Cole** · 10-14-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Di

That's a beast of a job any way you slice it.

I'm not privy to meeting the HOs, but I see a big house, no landscaping, and a MAJOR detail (the deck) omitted by the builder or the HO in some convoluted way to save a dollar up front. There is no way a house THAT large should have been built without a deck or a realistic patio. Someone along the way was cheap. If these HOs are the original owners, then you can read into what you're dealing with.

As Mac said, before you invest anything in this project, tell them due to the time and effort required to put a together a detailed proposal, you'll require a D/B agreement and fee. Let them know now, they are looking at a minimum $40k for a bare bones job.

If they flinch, you just saved a lot of time and aggravation. If they want to move ahead, then at least you are getting paid to do the proposal and you know they are serious.

Wise man, right here!

Greg Di · 10-14-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole

Wise man, right here!

Well, Cole, I know you are not supposed to judge a book by it's cover, but sometimes you can size-up a job/customer just by looking at the outside of their house. There are tons of clues if you know where to look.

That being said, I have totally misjudged a few customers based on their houses, but most of the time, my little red-alert alarms save me a ton of aggravation!