Why Does Code Note Require Gfci Breakers On Electric Water Heaters?

Speedy Petey

This one statement alone proves you have only half a clue.

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macmikeman

Ok, in answer to Arealplumbers question, here is my list of ifs.
By the way you saw an ark, not a spark.

If: one of the surrounding houses lost their neutral connection, but the house you worked on still had a good neutral conductor connection back to the transformer.

If: The surrounding houses are tied together by a copper water pipe system like how they do it in my area, with no insulating joints in it anywhere and bonded around water meters.

If: The surrounding houses had their breakers on which allows current to get on their copper water pipes via their neutral bond connectons to grounding electrode conductor tied to the water pipe at those dwellings.

Given those Ifs, your house was serving as a neutral current return path for the other house(s). You could have a 120 volt potential at an opening of a path back to the transformer like when you separated the ground wire from the heater which is continous to the water piping system. Your neutral would serve as a path back to the source for somebody else's unbalanced current. Current was traveling the water piping to the heater case, and then through the heaters equipment grounding conductor to the neutral/ground bond at the service, then back to the transformer source. That potential at the opening of the circuit could have caused an ark. Probably not a high energy ark, but still yet an ark. You can witness the same phenominum if and as you remove a neutral conductor from the neutral busbar while it is under load. (by the way I do not suggest that you go trying to do this as you can get quite a whallop off that neutral if you are not careful with it.) I hope that answers your question. I don't believe I was jumping on you before, (maybe I did a bit....) I did however the other plumber who came here with wrong info and then proceeds to tell us how we are all wrong.

480sparky

See, now that's how you prove yourself the idiot. You only post PART OF THE STORY..... HALF THE FACTS. And even assumptions (......"I guess".....)

Both your story about the sparking ground (is it still a sparking ground, or is it something else now?), and your story about a pump.

If you want to get an honest freaking answer, try posting ALL OF THE INFORMATION. MAKE THAT INFORMATION CONSISTENT.... DON'T CHANGE IT EVERY OTHER POST.

I think it's already been shown to the world you don't have a clue what you're talking about. And the sad fact is.......... YOU PROVED IT YOURSELF!

Then, just so you can thump your chest and act the Alpha Male, you start spewing out Paul Harveys' Rest of the Story. "Boy, you guys are such *** because you only know what I tell you and don't know all the facts and don't know the whole story because I didn't tell it to you! You're such *** professionals {..... NOT!}! Now, let's not disrespect people..... except for me because I'm so *** smart about everything!"




You say a wire sparked when you took it apart. Fine. Then you say you knew why it happened. Yes, you said you knew how it happened. Then you said you didn't know how it happened, and would have to call the utility to find out. THEN: You wanted answers about how that could happen. And they have been offered to you. Now, "don't disprespect people" (Yea, YOU said that!), but what do you do? YOU IMMEDIATELY DISRESPRECT THEM by calling them idiots and unprofessional. NOW who is unprofessional?

ARP......... give us a break: stick to plumbing. There's only two things you need to know to be a plumber.... *** runs downhill and payday is Friday.

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

480sparky

I tried telling him that, but apparently I'm too much of a fúcking asshole electrician I don't know what I'm talking about. I guess I should go to TurdHerder School in order to finish my electrical training.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

I know this ****s gonna roll downhill today for sure. Your just like the electrician that worked on the pump....assumed he knew everything and it cost him 15 grand. My original post said i knew what happened and I do....The power co had a problem at the powerpole. I only tried to explain half-assed i admit as to why it happened after you idiots couldn't figure it out or said "It cant happen". You will be getting a proper answer. In the mean time try to to kill anybody with your "Know it all" attitude......like the electrician who wired my pump up wrong. he was so dumb even after i explained how he burnt the pump up...he still didn't get it.

ARealplumber

I will tell you another way i could get intermittant voltage at the water heater. This happened a few years ago thanks to a stupid electrician. I turn the double pole 30 amp breaker to the off position. Check the two legs and they show the power is off. I go to the truck for a garden hose and come back to the water heater,and when i pull the wires i get sparks. I check the wires and they read 60 volts or so. i check the breaker and its off....i go back to the wires and they show "NO POWER". I wait a few minutes and check the wires again......this time i get power again about 60 volts. The dumbass electrician didn't have a double pole space in outside main panel for a tanning bed he wired up...so what does this idiot do????? he sticks one leg of the 220v tanning bed into one leg of the water heater breaker and the ohter leg into some other breaker to get 220 for the tanning bed. Everytime the tanning bed was turned on i would get voltage back at the water heater. Another dumbass trying to kill sombody. I called an electrician about this problem.....His answer was "If the breaker is off theres noway power is coming through it".........so one electrician wired it wrong then another was so arrogant he wouldn't even come look at the problem...just assumed i was mistaken.
HEY DID ANY OF YOU ELECTRICIANS DO THIS......I FOUND IT IN AN ATTIC A FEW WEEKS BACK.NICE WORK GUYS

Magnettica

Usually I come and fix that sort of thing.

Saw this the other day, did you do this?



NICE WORK GUYS!!!

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Electrician service in Rahway, Cranford, Clark, Westfield, Mountainside, Scotch Plains, Fanwood, Roselle, Roselle Park, and New Jersey | Same day electrical service and repairs | Licensed and Insured Electrician in Rahway

480sparky

First off, YOU are the one assuming I assume I know everything. I am not the one here who is spouting off about how much smarter I am than everyone else. That's your job.

How do you get any work done at the job site when you're so busy telling the framers, carpenters, drywallers, electricians, brickmasons, landscapers, painters, roofers, carpet layers, etc. etc. etc. how to do THEIR jobs since they're all a bunch of dolts?

You said you knew what happened. That is a lie by your own admission. You then stated you would find out what happened. We're still waiting, and I seriously doubt you will find out anyway.

You just can't seem to grasp the facts that your story keeps changing. How do you expect us to give you an answer when you keep changing and adding stuff?

The only defense you've offered on your behalf is that we're all just numbnuts who can't run a pair of wire strippers to save our lives. And yes, IT WAS YOU ----- YOU ---- who stated, and I will quote you:

Now, you want an answer about how it could happen. What part of TWO POSSIBILITIES HAVE BEEN OFFERED AND YOU HAVE NOT EVEN MADE NOTICE OF IT do you not comprehend? YOU WANT A FREAKING ANSWER, AND THEN YOU IGNORE THEM ONLY SO YOU CAN INSULT US MORE.

If you want to keep posting photos of someone else's poor work and childishly ask if it mine, well, go right ahead.... act like a two-year old. That is obviously the level of your mentality.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

spdtrx

480 sparky
Thats why I like you. You never hold anything back.
I like reading your post at Mike Holt forum as well.
I'v learned alot form your posts and I thank you for that.

ARealplumber

I thought you were the guy saying "IT CANT HAPPEN". Well mr sparky it did happen. I had a wire sparking with every breaker and panel in the OFF position as my original post stated. And i do know what happened. The power company had a problem at their powerpole. Nothing was changed or repaired at the customers home. You will get your proper explaination if you can hold your wad long enough.
I JUST LEFT A MESSAGE TO A FRIEND THAT BUILDS THE SUB STATIONS FOR THE POWER CO. I WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER SOON.

ARealplumber

Keep checking back....Mr sparky's gonna learn somthing like the one earlier in the thread did about the water heater element not tripping the breaker. He already has learned i have a test meter and know how to use it. He also learned that some pumps have a float control and the pump has to be plugged into it or the pump's thermal overload kicks in.....and will eventually burn the pump up. All for free. I kinda feel cheated.

480sparky

OK, the ONLY TIME I said it can't happen is in post 155. And that is the post where I offered one of the possible explainations you have even yet to acknowledge reading. That explanation says some of the breakers had to be turned on, yet you maintain they all were off. If all the power was turned off, and the neutral had been disconnected at the pole (like you claim), then I still maintain there is no way a ground wire at the water heater could arc. If a structure is completely disconnected from it's source of electricty (all breakers off) and the neutral is open, there's no way for electricity to get into the house to cause an arc.

Care to comment on the possibility I offered? Is there something I did wrong? is there anything I missed? Do you actually understand it at all?

Or are you just going with "I'll have an answer in due time, just hold your horses!"?

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

The power co had a problem....it caused voltage to be fed back to the house...I happened to be the guy who disconnected a ground at the water heater and it was sparking. ALL THE BREAKERS WERE OFF. Now who is suppose to be the electrician? Your suppose to be telling me how that happened. You guys Fk'd up when you started making smart remarks about me checking the wires with a test meter and sombody being "stupid". Just like the typical "know it all" like the electricain's I've delt with in the past. Now I know why the Union pays the sparky's less than the plumbers union guys make. Serves you guys right

Magnettica

First off, YOU are the one assuming I assume I know everything.

You don't?

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Electrician service in Rahway, Cranford, Clark, Westfield, Mountainside, Scotch Plains, Fanwood, Roselle, Roselle Park, and New Jersey | Same day electrical service and repairs | Licensed and Insured Electrician in Rahway

480sparky

AND I DID!

AND I DID!


AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

AND I DID!

And so did mcmikeman in post 162.

And so did mcmikeman in post 162.

And so did mcmikeman in post 162.

And so did mcmikeman in post 162.

And so did mcmikeman in post 162.

And so did mcmikeman in post 162.



Can't you even acknowledge my post (#155) and mcmikemans (162)? Is that so fúcking difficult? Can you AT LEAST SAY you read them? Can you reach down into the bottom of the vast chasm of your experience and at least say that you read them? Is it so fúcking difficult to do this that you are incapable of it?

Can you even comment on them? Make a statement?


No, and I'm not like some plumbers who keep saying they do.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

Anti-wingnut

Chances are that none of that was done by an electrician, but by someone who "worked with electricity", maybe Handyman99

Magnettica

The power company discovered what we knew last night. Several of the good electricians told you exactly what the problem was, -- LAST NIGHT. The grounded neutral conductor came undone on the utility side, also know as the supply side. When this happens -- and it does happen, obviously -- current will take the path of the grounding electrode conductor. This is an NEC code requirement, not something we do to make fun of plumbers when they get shocked. Here, maybe this'll help you understand better....

If you want to see the pictures that came with this article from EC&M magazine, click here

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Electrician service in Rahway, Cranford, Clark, Westfield, Mountainside, Scotch Plains, Fanwood, Roselle, Roselle Park, and New Jersey | Same day electrical service and repairs | Licensed and Insured Electrician in Rahway

ARealplumber

Yeah I read that post.......did you? All the breaker were OFF. The ground DID SPARK. What part dont you get...oh yeah thats why i'm waiting on my phone call from a guy who can explain it to you in terms you will understand.

480sparky

So you read it. Care to comment? Or don't you understand it at all?

Yes, but will YOU understand those terms?

And you're waiting for a phone call from someone to explain something to you that you have already highly boasted that you already knew.

Like I said..... shît runs downhill and payday is Friday........

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

Nothing posted remotely came close to this explaination. Thank you for this very informative post. I'm glad I read it. I hope some other electricians will read it and THEN READ THE CRAP THEY POSTED AND COMPARE THE difference in the content. SORRY THE PLUMBER COULDN'T GIVE AN EXPLAINATION LIKE THAT.