Why Does Code Note Require Gfci Breakers On Electric Water Heaters?

macmikeman

You go right ahead Cap'n, I will take the helm over for you, I got hours to go .............

480sparky

First off, you haven't asked a question about electrical theory (other than this one).

In order to answer your (now obvious) question (which you at first claimed you already knew the answer to, then stated you would find out, then admitted you didn't actually know....) we have to know what truly happened. Not "I think....", Not "I'll call the power company....." Not conjecture or guesses.

Was it a lost neutral, or a lost ground?

If it was a lost ground, NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. If it was a lost neutral, TURNING OFF THE BREAKERS WOULD STILL HAVE DISCONNECTED THE POWER.

Does that answer your question?

Any more surprises for us? Like it was 120V only service?


Nah, I'll stick it out for a while. I'll meander over the the plumbing forum and start up some trouble whilst ARP composes a response.

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ARealplumber

Ok then thats what your saying it cannot happen. Well it did mr sparky. And I will have an answer as to HOW it happened. Your gonna eat your words......I've been in the plumbing service business for 26 years and I've seen alot of strange things. The power co came out and repaired the problem at the POLE.

macmikeman

Good, the wife just hollared something about dinner time, and then I got to go teeech the kids spelllllin..........

protechplumbing

I have to go to bed as well. I will draw a diagram with the ohms law showing why you will not have voltage at the other end of the energized water service pipe. I'll get to it tomorrow evening.

I'll close for the night with this statement: The water pipe is one giant ground rod. If you apply 120 volts ac to one end of a series of ground rods you will not have 120 volts at the end of the string of rods. A long underground metallic pipe is no different( that's why you attach a ground clamp to the pipes for secondary grounding in the first place remember)

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Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

480sparky

Hmmmmmmmmmmm:


OK, so now it was the GROUND WIRE in the water heater that was sparking? Not the HOTs as us idiots assumed from your original post on the subject because you were turning all the breakers off?

I never said it just cannot happen. It's just I can't pin down what you're saying happened. First, it was the hots that sparked after the breakers were turned off. Then it was the ground that was lost. Then the neutral. Now it's the ground that sparked.

Ya know.... it's real hard to hit a target that's moving.

The utility may have fixed something at the pole, but there's more to this story than we know. You or me both. Something is missing.

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

protechplumbing

See pic for my response

Attached Thumbnails

 

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Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

ARealplumber

Let me rephrase the question for you and then maybe you can answer it.
what problem could the utility company have if I can get a sparking ground wire at a water heater when its disconnected and all the breakers are off everywhere. Now whats your answer? So I got the neutral and the ground confused but only after you guys had no clue and started asking me how it could happen. YOUR THE ELECTRICIAN.

protechplumbing

Uh, yes, it does. Do I need to put a meter on a 120v leg and a driven ground rod? How about I install an incanecent bulb in series with a hot leg and a grounded rod. You gonna tell be it wont light? pulease

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Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

480sparky

An open neutral could cause a spark when you open the ground at the water heater tank, but NOT if all the power is off to the house.

Part of the story we need is:

1. Was the plumbing all metal (copper or galvanized), plastic (pvc/cpvc/pex) or a mix of the two?
2. Was the electrical service properly bonded at the main panel?
3. Is the incoming water line metal or plastic?
4. Was the electrical service bonded to the plumbing (assuming metal piping)?
5. Were there any 'made electrodes' (ground rods, rebar in the footings, plates, rings,..... etc) bonded to the system?
6. Is all the bonding and grounding of a low enough impedence path to properly function as a ground?

None of what you've given us tonight would cause it. Maybe combined with another problem, it's possible. Maybe two other problems occured that had nothing to do with what the utility did at the pole caused it.

I seriously doubt you'll ever find an answer.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

480sparky

Only because you have a system that is intentionally grounded. Take all the grounding out, and it will not light. Intentionally grounding a system simply provides an alternate path for the current to flow.

Waste water in a drain line do not 'seek' the sewer line out in the street, does it? Of course not! You provide a path to it with your drain line. If you did not install a sanitary sewer line between a house and the city's sewer, do you think all the wastewater is going to flow towards the street anyway like lemings to the sea?

PuhLeeze!

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

protechplumbing

The point I have been trying to make here is that voltage CAN'T travel from one house to another via the water service because the water service is well grounded. Electricity will not go into the ground and then jump back out. It don't work dat way

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Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

ARealplumber

I'm telling you that the center conductor in that main panel had voltage coming through it. The water heater's ground wire along with all the other grounds and neutrals from the house are bonded all together in that main outside panel box. Now why would voltage be coming down the neutral leg from the utility co.? The neutrals and the grounds do not run through the breakers so the breakers being off would not make a difference.

macmikeman

Tell you what. I can make the whole thing easier for you. Get a 12 volt light bulb out of your car. Get the battery from it also. Drive a ground rod. Hook a wire to one terminal only on the car battery. It really doesn't matter which one, you could try either if you want to experiment some, just make sure its only one terminal. Install your bulb in series with that wire and the ground rod. Watch in rapt awe as nothing happens. This result you will get is because you have not learned plumbing well enough yet to explain it properly to us. By your learn ed plumbing knowledge, that setup I just told you ought to send the spare electricity surging out of the battery thru the light and down, down, down, deep into the very center of the earth where all the wild things are. Do a you tube video of that for us....

480sparky

IF (and there's several ifs here!):

1. The service lost it's neutral connection completely between the pole and the house...... and IF
2. some or all of the breakers were still turned on...... and IF
3. some of those breakers that were left on supplied multi-wire branch circuits.... and IF
4. said mwbc's had enough load imbalance on them to create a potential current to ground on it's neutral......... and IF
5. the water heater ground itself was the only path left for said unbalanced current to follow............. Then

I could see it happening. But that's a lot of if's.

However, if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark.

Another possibility (and a long shot, I'm sure you'll agree): Static or devinely-timed lightning.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

So now you want to talk about dc voltage??? stay on the subject if you can manage. try answering my question. You guys remind me of the last electrician I dealt with. I was called out to a sump pump that had a float with a piggyback plug for the pump to plug into. DUH DUH DUH how else would the pump know to turn off and on. This dumbass plugs them in seperately becuase the rainbox wouldn't close. Her basement floods and He tells her to call a plumber Well I found out today it costs the electrician 15,000 in damage because he was too stupid to know how a simple float switch and pump is plugged in.

ARealplumber

I was told by the power co that the ladys house was basically a ground rod for the few houses connected to that transformer. i will call them tomm. I follow up on things so rest assured you will get a logical and correct answer in a day or so. I guess any imbalance was being fed to her house....since all the neutrals and grounds are bonded in the main panel thats how it bled through the ground at the water heater....it would have probably bled through any ground i disconnected. the power guy said it was very dangerous condition.

480sparky

So now electrical theory, which is valid in both the AC and DC world, makes us as dumb as this guy?

Seems I recall someone (I won't say who.......) said "Let's not disrespect people".




























Now, since both the float switch and pump are plugged in seperately, wouldn't the pump run continuously since there's no float switch to turn it off? And how would that flood the basement?

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

You guys hurled enough insults at the start because you thought I was a fool. You deserve one back...dont act like you dont.
The pumps thermal overload shut the pump off. The pump would cycle on and off by the thermal overload and finally it burnt the motor up. I guess he just plugged it all in and left,never waiting for it to cut off. He even admitted to plugging it in seperate. He thought thats how it plugged up.

Speedy Petey

Yeah, OK big shot.

You must be a real joy on the job site. You know, being smarter than everyone else and making sure you let them know it all the time.
WTF is it with some plumbers. There are a few I know that are the best guys, to the point where we are good friends and pretty much everyone likes them. THEN.....there are several who are complete pricks and don't get along with many folks.

I turned in early last night. I am glad the others here showed you what's what.

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