Why Does Code Note Require Gfci Breakers On Electric Water Heaters?

480sparky

Nothing.

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ARealplumber

There are 3 wires that went into that service panel. The neutral wire had votage coming from the pole and it was feeding through the ground at the water heater. Simple as that. i cant tell you the exact cause but the power company corrected a problem at the powerpole. Its up to you guys to determine why. if you cant come up with a reason then i will call the power co. and ask them how it can happen.

480sparky

I await with bated breath your report from your local power utility. I'm sure they will be so pleased to explain, to a plumber, in highly technical terms I'm sure you're familiar with, how an open ground at a transformer will cause power to magically flow through the service neutral and cause you to see sparks in a water heater that's not connected to the neutral that supposedly had power coming in from the pole. How refreshing it will be to be 'learned something' about electrical by a plumber.

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

The water heater wire had a ground wire. The grounds and neutrals are all connected together in the main panel outside. The transformer lost its neutral and the imbalanced load between the two conductors was dumped to that house. So the house was acting as a big ground rod for that transformer. As I said I'm no electrician but I will find the answer for you tomm. as given from the power co. Until then try not to disrespect people.

480sparky

Your story has now changed to 'the transformer lost it's neutral' instead of it 'losing it's ground'?




OK, let's run with that.

So now there's going to be some voltage differences between the each of the two hots and ground. Maybe 110v/130v, maybe 100v/140v, maybe 90v/250v. What it is depends on the loads impressed on each side of the service.

But turning the breakers off will still turn off the power, whether it's 120v, 130,v, 10v, 50v, whatever. And if the transformer lost it's neutral, turning every breaker off will then completely disconnect all the wires from the utility.

Yes, let's try not to disrespect people. I'm still waiting for class to start.

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

protechplumbing

Perhaps you could break it down for me then.

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protechplumbing

So let me get this straight. There is sufficient contact with the earth on a few ground rods to ground the system, but not a few hundred feet of larger diameter pipe?

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macmikeman

Just so you know, transformers loosing the neutral connection and transformers loosing the ground connection are two different animals. You have been saying the transformer lost its ground. The fact that the two conductors get connected at certain points does not mean you get to confuse one for the other. I can make either hot or cold water come out my one shower head. There is still a hot water pipe and a cold water pipe. It would rile a plumber for me to pose plumbing questions and not be able to make that distinction.

480sparky

Maybe you should go over to the plumbing forum and ask why the hot is on the left and cold on the right.

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
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ARealplumber

THE ABOVE IS POST NUMBER 109. NOW WHAT DOES IT SAY IN THE FIRST LINE OF THAT PARAGRAPH? Why didn't you catch that two hours ago?
add>: You guys are far from professionals or you woulda picked right up on what had happened. This electrical forum needs major help in the tech department. I will still get the ruling for you guys as to what this can do. Since none of you seem to know.

macmikeman

Dude you are trying to cheat. At least repost your ridiculous statement if you want to question my response to it. Here is what you posted. I will now highlight the foolish statement you made and then ask you a question.

Question: Can you explain in your best plumbing terms to me what the frick you are meaning with The amount of pipe surface area exposed to the moist earth would dissapate any voltage before it made it all the way back up the neighbors water service and into his house? Oh wait I get it now. The electrons got hungry and dissapated down to that electro fast food resturant at the center of the earth they all want' to get to. Is that the right plumbers answer?

protechplumbing

And BTW, I was just able to get 67volts by holding one lead and sticking the other one in a 120v receptical. That is enough voltage to shock someone. I was also touching a painted block wall. So if voltage was being back fed into the ground wire of the house arealplumber was in, from another houses inbalanced panel, and the neutral tap on the transformer was not connected, he could have been shocked.

Probable, no. Possible, yes.

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ARealplumber

TRY READING THE FIRST SENTENCE OF POST NUMBER 109 MADE ABOUT 2 HRS AGO. DO YOU NOT READ THE POSTS? YOUR SUPOSE TO BE THE ELECTRICIAN AND HAVE THE ANSWER NOT ME.

480sparky

I caught it pretty easy. You said the transformer lost it's ground and somehow 'intermittent power' was being sent to the house, travelling through a the neutral.

Now you're saying the transformer lost it's neutral. How does power travel through a conductor that is no longer compete and cannot be part of the circuit?

What part of your own story don't you understand?

So which is it?

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Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
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protechplumbing

I don't need plumbing terms. Electricity always tries to return to ground. Since it would have to travel through the pipe that is extremely well grounded, it would not travel all the way back up into the adjacent house just to, then threw an individuals body to then get to ground.

Are you going to make me draw you a parallel resistance circuit diagram?

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Magnettica

you had objectionable current flow because the grounded connection to the utility was lost.

why do plumbers use red for hot and blue for cold, why not green for cold or orange for hot?

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480sparky

Uh, no it doesn't.

Electricity is not 'manufactured' in the ground, and therefore electrons will want to 'return home like salmon'. It will seek any path available back to it's source. If that's through the ground, then so be it. But threre is no lunch counter in the ground that starving electrons are somehow drawn to.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

macmikeman

You are doing it again you know. Both of those funny colored sentances are Plumbers terms, not electricians ones because they are both completly absolutly in no uncertain terms wrong on all counts. Hows that?

480sparky

No, but how about two diagrams using Ohms Law explaining what an open neutral will do to voltage to ground on the hots in a 3-wire circuit?



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I hope ARP either fesses up or comes clean with an explanation. It's waaaay past my bedtime.

__________________
Site : the area or exact plot of ground on which anything is, has been, or is to be located.
Sight : The power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
Cite : To mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example.

ARealplumber

So now do you want to answer my original question with an electrical theory??? Or throw more insults and act like a complete idiot.
Botom line is all you guys were intrested in was telling a plumber he didn't have a test meter or he's stupid. You guys are sad excuses for professionals.
ADD>: So somebody lay out why the ground wire was sparking at my water heater. Tell me how that happened. ????? Ground or neutral being lost at the pole or whatever......can it happen?