Why Does Code Note Require Gfci Breakers On Electric Water Heaters?

JamesNLA

A GFCI device exists for one reason. It is to protect people, not appliances. Pumps that move water, and said water has people immursed must be bonded.

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JamesNLA

What if it's a gas heater? Does the power being supplied to the gas heater need to be GFI protected? If you think it does....well, than no one can help you.

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"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

breid1903

wingnut. i have had more than one shower faucet that was hot. 120v hot. a lot more kitchen faucets that were hot. most on mobs or 2 wire circuits. last one had leak in the fridge. don't know how it got to the plumbing. old hack job. breid................

macmikeman

Wait a hold on here a minute. I know quite a few of the electricians here at this site, and I know that they know that it is quite possible to have fault current available on the water pipe system given certain fault conditions are met. It is just not a common problem, actually quite rare, but it exists. Usually, but not always this means that the piping system is not properly bonded to the source neutral at the service, and there is a fault to that piping system someplace in the wiring, but an element can be a place that a fault to the piping system occurs. A person can complete the circuit from an energized metal surface (pipe) back to the source----In the plumbers mistaken minds- "ground" if they are also touching some other substance that is in that path back to the source. (read bare feet on concrete floor on grade as one way I can think of, or as someone else posted, metal drain piping that is effectively grounded.) The equipment ground on the water heater will probably work its magic most every time when the element faults to ground and the breaker will trip--------unless---- maybe its an FPE circuit breaker that the circuit is connected to, in which case- fault continues and no breaker trips. Sometimes even when more reliable breakers are in use, the actual fault on the element is not passing enough current to cause even a smaller breaker, let alone a 30 amp breaker to not trip. That small current even a single amp is enough to kill if the person getting the shock presents enough skin to lower the body's resistance to allow the full amp of current to flow past the heart. By the way the poster who declaired that electricity always follows the path of least resistance doesn't know what he is talking about. Electricity always follows ALL paths back to the source, some allow more current to flow than others is all. That last statement is what every single plumber should understand, cause given the fact that the electrical code requires a buried metal water pipe to serve as a grounding electrode if present at the building, interruption (cutting) that metal pipe without first bonding jumper around the cut, can be a fatal mistake. You see plumbing boys and girls, the grounding electrode is connected to the neutral of the system, and presents itself as one of the alternate paths back to the source. I allready told you that electricity follows ALL paths back to the source- the pipe can be subject to more than just a few amps- now go back up and look at Celtic's chart- above the fatal threshold (potentially). Having spouted all this bad spelling, I will conclude that protecting water heaters with a gfi breaker is not a foolish idea, it might contribute to somebody's safety someplace or another, but the conditions required for it to be considered necessary to include into the NEC are too rare an occurance.

macmikeman

Something I left out of all that: Truth be told, when water heater elements go out, they usually go out with a bang. Either dead short across the 240 volt line, or an open circuit which only results in no hot water. Low current faults are a rare animal and usually do not last long until they become large enough to trip a breaker. But it does happen.

Celtic

Mike,
You're a man of many words and few paragraphs




Great explanation

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macmikeman

Oh yea, paragraphs. I fogot about dem tings.

JamesNLA

http://www.nasdonline.org/document/1...ectricity.html


I think I understand what you are saying...it was a bit hard to follow your wording (it was the paragraphs!!!)

Electricity will absolutly follow ALL paths, that is fact and unobjectionable.
However, After the fact, current WILL also without a doubt follow the path of LEAST resistance. THis is of course porportional to resistance. Situations where an all metalic water piping system exists, and the neutral in that same home becomes disco's at or before the service can cause a dead man walking situation, because the neighbor who also has an all metalic water piping system, made common with the city's metalic piping creates a a situation where the piping is now a current carring conductor.

If I understood you correctly, is this a situation where a GFI device would prove useful?

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

macmikeman

James - the quote you are trying to attribute to me is not mine, but anyway the situation you are describing is common to dwellings that have lost the neutral connection. The houses nearby serve to deliver the neutral currrent return to the source. This is accomplished via the first home's bond connection between the grounding electrodes and the neutral at the service. Having a gfi on the hot water heater branch circuit would be of no value in this situation, a gfi main breaker would probably be effective. However, gfi protected mains tend to get a bit to trippy due to all sorts of other accumlitive mayhem in the system they are protecting. Not Practicle.

macmikeman

Quote:
"The combination of voltage, amperage, resistance to the flow of the current and duration of contact makes working with electricity dangerous. Electricity follows an uninterrupted path. If the body becomes part of the path, electricity will pass through it. Even though dry hands and feet offer more resistance to electrical current than do wet hands or feet, the current can be lethal under either condition. This is especially true if the electricity passes through vital organs, such as the heart or lungs. Electricity always follows the path of the least resistance. Grounding electricity means that there is an easy path for the current to follow"

It does, however it also follows all other paths back to source as well.

Who ever was the author of that article has yet to become a member of the Illuminati..... There are many many learned electrical experts who prescribe to the "follows the path of least resistance" diatribe simply because they heard it from other "learned" men. It isn't true by itself. It should be" follows the path of least resistance along with all the other available return paths in varying degree to the resistance of the circuit provided".

JamesNLA

Didn't I just say that? Maybe it should read: Electricity always flows to all paths, especially those of the least resistance

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

protechplumbing

I will have to respectfully disagree on that. I've witnessed it happen more then ten times.

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Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

protechplumbing

I don't see that happening. The amount of pipe surface area exposed
to the moist earth would dissipate any voltage before it made it all the way back up the neighbors water service and into his house. The water services would essentially be acting as grounding electrodes.

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Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

Tinstaafl

Man, I really have to stock up on one of those popcorn-eating-spectator buttons.

ARealplumber

I was disconnecting an electric water heater at a home. I turned the power off to the water heater. Opened the cover at the top for the wire connections to the unit,pulled the wired out and they sparked. I turned every breaker in the outside panel off and it still would spark. I know the reason why this happened but was curious as to what others think it was.

Speedy Petey

It was sparking because you don't have a tester.

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ampman

solar power

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ARealplumber

Thats the wrong answer. I had a tester but it had nothing to do with the wire sparking. Thanks for trying though

480sparky

It wasn't on a breaker.

I think Petey was slamming you for not properly testing for power after you 'thought' it was off.

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Celtic

I know the reason too....someone was stoopid.
Now, who knows who that someone was

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