Who Runs The Thermostat Wire?

DupuisConst

Im a GC in Connecticut and I recently got in an argument with my electrician about who is supposed to run the thermostat wire. Can anyone give me their opinion on this?

RobertWilber

Thermostat wire? 18/2? 18/3? 18/6? 18/10?
HVAC guy.

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Philadelphia electrician

Speedy Petey

VERY common argument/discussion.
I've heard both side of the argument and seen both outcomes.
I leave it up to the plumber/HVAC. I am one of the few electricians in the area who can wire up pretty much any boiler/HVAC. The only thing I stay away from is hydro radiant. That is a very specialized installation, and they usually want to do it themselves anyway.

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thom

Generally my tinner does it. On the last two houses he didn't so I did (I am both the GC and EC). It's not worth arguing about. run a 5 wire between the furnace location and the t-stat location, a 2 wire between the furnace location and the a/c compressor location, bury enough slack in the walls so you will be able to pull it out later and you're done.

The time to discuss this with the subs is greater than the time it takes to do it.

mdshunk

I plan on doing it just in case, but most of the time the HVAC man does it. I generally ask the GC or project manager on the first day walk through who's running it. Another thing that seems to fall through the cracks, that sometimes the electrician has to do, is the bath fan and clothes dryer venting. I really don't care who does it. I just need to know if they want me to do it or not.

In a residential project, I'd never argue about it. You're probably talking about 2 or three dollars worth of thermostat wire. If it is a commercial project, if it's not in the bid request or on an E sheet, I ain't doing it.

Grumpyplumber

Too funny, just had this debate with a homeowner I did some heat lines for.
His electrician said it was my responsibility. (nice of him)
I made a couple of points, first I saw it coming and had him re-read my contract..."not including wiring", second...well...it's wire, I'm a plumber.
I did another boiler a few months back where the electrician asked me "Are you going to wire the controls?".
I asked him "Um...I hired you to wire ...right?"
Don't get me wrong, if I'm doing something simple, like replacing a zone head, then yeah of course.
I'm not running around the house, up and down stairs drilling holes and pulling wire...trying to figure out what lead goes to what terminal when it's not my job description, if I am including it in a contract...it's subbed to the guys with the right tools and experience.

mahlere

agreed. just gotta make sure it's not incidated on the M sheet that the EC is responsible for wiring...seen that before...

Speedy Petey

Sorry Grumpy, IMO you are quite wrong. It IS in your job description.

What about a simple boiler replacement? Do you hire out the wiring for that?
What about electric water heater replacements? Or just the elements?

EVERY good plumber I know has a limited electrical license to work in the areas requiring one.
EVERY good plumber I know can wire almost any boiler, as can most good electricians.

Sorry, but the "I'm a plumber. I don't touch wire." mentality bothers me for some reason.

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mahlere

it shouldn't...you should thank every plumber who says "that's wiring, I'll call an electrician"

why should you be upset that a guy doesn't want to take money away from you?

btw - in NJ, it's actually illegal for a plumber to wire anything over 10V unless he has an Electrical license.

mdshunk

Isn't there some sort of limited license? They have a limited electrical license in the areas that I work in also. It permits plumbers to change water heaters and wire boilers and controls and stuff like that. That's not to say, however, that there aren't some plumbers with such a license that have no business touching a wire, in my opinion based on the result of their work.

There's plenty of work to go around...

mahlere

nope.


but, I will say this...it's not enforced.

Celtic will be along later with the actual text from the Board of Examiners...

Speedy Petey

Because sometimes I have enough to do without having to do someone else's job.

Like I said, real plumbers DO have the license around here, for the few areas that require one.

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Grumpyplumber

Thats your opinion.
Here it takes a 5 year apprenticeship and 500 hours of school to be licensed as an electrician.
I stated above, on a simple 24 volt line..like a zone head replacement, it's rediculous to hire out an electrician..so fine, no license needed on low voltage here anyway.
I could just see it...I miss something on 115 line to a circ...didn't realize the wire was too low guage, in poor condition or wired wrong, it overheats and starts a fire...
What do I tell my insurance?
What do I say to the fire, electrical inspectors?
As far as wiring 3 zones into a taco 503...still no..I've done single zone relays and what looks obvious to you is spaghetti to me.
I've seen shorts on wiring from guys that decided they knew enough to wire
house current and I ain't gonna be the knucklehead that has to explain to you that I figured I'd save a few bucks to do it myself.
Maybe code is different where you are...but wires aren't plumbing.
The only semblance to electrical equipment I have is a crude voltage tester that shows me what voltage it is and whether it's DC, AC...or a closed circuit.
I have an electrician I keep busy and he doesn't mind the work, in fact I think he appreciates it for some reason, I don't think he minds the "I'm a plumber I don't touch wire" routine.

Grumpyplumber

Also, here, any boiler installs require installation of a co detector directly on the boilers circuit...SPECIFICALLY by a licensed electrician.
Most often, boilers are replaced with higher efficiency 85% or better and through the gas co. they get substantial rebates.
This requires permits to prove it's done right, which means the plumbing inspector'll wanna know who wired it.
I'm not kidding, I could lose my license.
Seems like 90% of disagreements here are founded on code differences from state to state that some of us aren't aware of.
I make no assumptions that my states code is THE code.

thom

I (GC) install exhaust fans myself before the HVAC guys show up. They run the vents, when the house gets wired the fans get wired. Can hardly expect the tinner to vent fans that aren't there. The tinner installs a box for the dryer vent and does the venting. It's my job to give him a 2X6 wall to put it in and proper vent pipe access.

mdshunk

Sounds like you're on the ball. Good job

Grumpyplumber

LOL...last summer I had a GC try to tell me the "fart" vent was my responsibility.
He's an older fella and the attic was very hot where it had to run.
His crew was at another job, I just kept him happy and did the deed.

Celtic

Since I was invited to the dance

In NJ you have a few choices of what hat you will wear when it comes to being an "electrician".
1 - Apprentice/helper
2 - Qualified Journeyman
3 - Licensed Electrician
4 - Licensed Electrical Contractor
5 - Exempt Status

#1 and 2 are what category many electricians fall into...with the dominant choice being #1. The reason for the #1 domination is that the #2 selection requires some input to the State and most guys have never heard about "Qualified Journeyman" status ~ so technically they are helpers, but as enforcement is virtually non-existent these guys call themselves electricians anyway.http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/adoption/elado63.htm (See item 1.9 for further clarification)
Also see http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/laws/ElectricRegs.pdf ~ 13:31-1.2
Some of these guys do not even fit under the classification of helper as defined above.

To be come #3, a person needs to take the electrical contractors test. When they pass(if they pass) they are now "licensed"....but are not "licensed" to do ANYTHING. They CANNOT pull permits or run a business.


#4 is the licensed electrical contractor. They have passed the testing requirements from #3, obtained their insurance and bonding, registered their trade name, received a FEIN number, etc. These are the people who can pull permits for a job.

#5 is a strange animal. You can obtain this classification to some LV work...limited to telecommunications work (Article 800). You are "exempt" from "real" electrical work.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/electric/telewire.pdf

There is no limited/unlimited, master, etc classifications.


The running of t-stat wires IS the work of the electrician....however, some people might have more than one hat. I personally know a couple of plumber/electricians who have BOTH their licenses for contracting BOTH trades. To my knowledge, HVAC requires no licensing/testing with the one exception being the actual use of the refrigerants (R-22? I don't know??) ~ although registration with the State would be required under the HICA(Home Improvement Contractor's Act).

A person w/o any sort of licensing status may NOT run ANY wiring WITH the following exceptions(there's more but I'll limit it to these few items ~ the others include Municipal Utilities; mines, ships, railways, etc; the dreaded "Home Owner" permit; etc)

http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/laws/ElectricLaw.pdf



How's that mahlere?
As predictable as ever?

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mahlere

yep...you just need to follow me around all day long, so when I have these conversations in real time, I can say "Celtic will fill in the details, see you tomorrow"

Celtic

LOL

You know the price

BTW, next weekend (8/18) I'll be pie shopping again ....only question:
Who is buying?

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