Union Labor Pros & Cons

cueitup02

what are the "pros & cons" of being in a union labor?


How come you cant open up a Contracting business in the future if i join a union labor?

Speedy Petey

Nobody here EVER said that.
We (in the other thread) said you will not get as well rounded experience in the union as you will working for varied private contractors.
The union tends to have you do the same things for a very long time with little variation. For instance, one guy I know ran conduit for a YEAR. The for another year he pulled wire. Literally!
IMO this is 1½ years wasted.

Another thing is the union tends to get pretty uppity if you decide to leave and open a private non-union shop.

I have a theory: There are union people, and there are non-union people.
Union people like the security of a steady job, even if you do get laid off for a few months. They like the high salary. They like the benefits. They tend to be lifelong pro-union.
Non-union folks like the freedom. They like NOT having to answer to anyone but the boss. If they are the boss the like not having to answer to ANYONE. They like not having to give money every month for dues, whether they work or not. And like me they like not having to deal with all the political BS and underworld activity that sometimes goes along with unions in general.

Like it or not, this is my opinion.

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Teetorbilt

I couldn't have said it any better.

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You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein

Glasshousebltr

Yes indeed.

Bob

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Bob

cueitup02

i know no one said it on this board.


i was just under the impression after talking to someone.

Does the union require u to sign a contract that keeps u a member for a certain amount of time?

Speedy Petey

Sorry, that I can't answer with any accuracy.

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hilltop

Having been both a union and non-union electrician maybe I can answer some of your questions.


You can open up your own contracting business if you're a union member as several men have done already. Motor City Electric (one of the biggest in the nation) was started this way.

There isn't a contract that keeps you a member for a certain amount of time per se, however they have you sign a card that states you want them to do your wage bargaining. You can rescind that agreement in writing anytime you want and leave the union.

In the Detroit local (58) of the IBEW, apprentices spend 5 years in apprentice training school before being recognized as a journeyman in the local and it is a year longer than the state requires. (They can take the state exam after 8000 work hours to become a licensed journeyman in the eyes of the state but they won't make union journeyman's scale until they graduate from the apprentice school.) Apprentices have to change contractors on a yearly basis so they are well rounded in their work experience. Some contractors do commercial work for the most part and others do mostly industrial etc. That way you end up as a well rounded journeyman able to handle any kind of job the contractor wants you to do.

It's been my experience that there are a few different groups of people in the Detroit local. One group is very dependable and knowledgeable. They show up for work on time, work very hard, can handle any job I give them and they do it right the first time. They couldn't care less about union politics. This group is roughly 80% of the men in the local and as a foreman these guys make my job easier.

The next group of guys are the old hardcore alcoholics that seemed to dominate the building trades in years past. They are slowly disappearing as their livers fail them. I refuse to take these guys and I send them right back to the union hall when I get them.

Another group "The contractor owes me a living" group is pretty much self explanatory. These guys are constantly getting laid off even when there is a lot of work to go around. Again I send these guys right back to the hall as their reputation precedes them.

The last group are the politicians. They run for office within the local asap and live off the dues collected from members once they are elected to office.

There are other sub-groups but you pretty much get the idea.

If you make yourself valuable to a union contractor they will bend over backward to keep you working for them. Many guys have been working for the same contractor for over 30 years. They will keep you employed, sometimes at a short term loss, so they retain their trusted manpower and not have to risk losing you for an unknown electrician from the hall. This is because of the work sharing rules of the local. Men are sent out of the hall for work in the same order that they were laid off.


Having been a foreman for union and non-union contractors I always had problems with under qualified or experienced electricians as well as not having enough or the correct tools and materials for the job in non-union shops. This really limited the size of jobs we could handle given the lack of knowledgeable manpower and tools. That situation changed dramatically when I started working for large union contractors because of the excellent apprentice schooling and they actually spent money on tools. This gives the local a very large qualified pool of journeyman to hire from. Now I don't have to worry if a guy knows how to do any job I give him. That's the reason why the big jobs such a Ford Field, Comerica Park, Detroit Metro Airport and other multi-million dollar jobs are for the most part wired by union contractors. They can get enough qualified electricians from the union hall (sometimes several hundred) to man the jobs.

Like everything in life there are good things and bad things in every organization. It just depends on what you want your life experience to be.

Sparky Joe

Very well put hilltop, I would've quoted everything, but didn't want to use all that space.


Oh and there are no contracts to sign(they won't come and break your legs if you leave)

Speedy Petey

That's debatable.

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sundogusa

Actually the reason the big jobs go to union shops is because the owners of the project are forced to sign a PLA (Project Labor Agreement). This in effect says the workforce will NOT go on strike while on their job.

I have know both union and non-union shops who could do almost any large job. Take Las Vegas. There are both shops doing casinos. Those are huge jobs! Both complete the jobs on time and schedule. They have to or they don't get paid!

Sparky Joe

I love the quick replies in this forum

To say the truth, they may, but they don't around here. It happens all the time in my local, all they have to do is when they want to come back (and they always come back)is meet in front of a board.

Something thats been pissin me off though, is 2 JW's with vans have been helping the non-union side with their union paid vans. Thinking of talking to the BA this week. Wonder what bones they'll break over that

Sparky Joe

"owners are forced" give me a break. PLA means the union contractor doesn't have to pay the full scale wages to the union employees in order to compete with the non-union work(their scabby wages and no benefits) in order to win the bid, this is done in times when work is slow in order to keep union workers at work and can only be approved by the unions elected official.

As far as Vegas; no non-union contractors ar being awarded full bids on any casino, they are being subbed out by the union electrical contractors because the work load is too heavy for anyone to keep up. This is right in my backyard and we have over 300 union travelers at work in my local right now that know the scoop on every project in the country.

Speedy Petey

Please let's not start with the union rah, rah, rah stuff and non-union bashing. I don't feel like having to type all sorts of rebuttals to your pro-union propaganda.
And before you get your panties in a wad and start typing a scathing reply, no, I was not bashing, I was joking. See the little smilies?

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Speedy Petey

Joe, let me ask you. What are your asperations in life?
Do you plan on being a union worker, making a good salary and retiring with benefits? Or do you aspire to have your own business?

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Sparky Joe

I have a little under 2 years left of union apprenticeship, but am going to take my JW test for the state next year, then after 2 years as a JW am going to take my masters test which then I can become a union contractor. Why do you ask?

Why a union contractor? as Hilltop said, I've seen lots of guys come in from the non-union side and don't know a thing about being a construction electrician

Speedy Petey

Just wondering.
So how many years is that in the trade after two JM years? 6?
Do you feel that is enough to be a self employed contractor?
I'm just trying to get a feel for which of my categories you fall into.

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Speedy Petey

I said union worker, not contractor.

I agree about the second part. Mostly because the union has all the large "construction" projects sewn up in the metropolitan areas.
Either way, in under 15 years I have had experience in running and working on everything from wiring Mrs. Jones' doorbell, to wiring $1m conveyor systems, to wiring several restraunts, to many retail stores. The last 5 years has not changed much.
I personally could not have gottne that broad or expereince working the union. At least not in my area.

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Sparky Joe

Yeah that will be 6 years, and as far as doing resi. that should be enough, but I have higher hopes of bigger and better things. And getting the license will just be a means of doing side work legally and also getting paid what I'm worth for doing it.

If the union doesn't like side work, they can kiss my a$$ because how else is one supposed to learn that contracting is what they want to do in life?

Speedy Petey

WOW!!!!! This is quite the contradictory post, isn't it?
So you are saying the only way to get a well rounded career is to do illegal side work under the union's radar???

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Sparky Joe

No that is not what I'm saying. What was said is if the union doesn't like side work then I either quit the union and make it or break until I join up with them again as a contractor, or they look the other way while I find out if I do make it or not.

The union gives well rounded experience, I've heard of the jobs you're talking about. They're building the largest hospital this side of the Mississippi right now in my neighborhood and those will be doing nothing more than running conduit or pulling wire for 5 years. One of my buddies is down there, can you imagine a rack of pipes 110 sticks wide, I like running pipe, but that must suck