Ufur - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Chris Johnson · 01-29-2008, 09:47 PM

Just starting a foundation on a new home, electrician normally comes in and installs the ufur prior to inspection so I can pour.

People haven't chose an electrician yet.

House is ICF to the roof.

Do I pour the foundation and let the inspector know the ufur will be installed when we pour the walls? This happened on another job and was acceptable not having the bare copper in the foundation wall/slab.

Can I just install a ufur myself, I know I can, I didn't know if there was a science to it, 200 amp service. I believe I see #6 solid, 20' buried in the concrete and ground clamps attaching it to my rebar, leave enough free to reach the main panel, basically buy 30' and have enough hanging out for the 'future' electrical contractor.

Magnettica · 01-29-2008, 10:27 PM

There is definitely a specific clamp you must use when attaching the #4 copper to the rebar. Someone here will know thew name of the clamp for sure. As an electrician, I have never been on the job to install this clamp.

Magnettica · 01-29-2008, 10:31 PM

Oh, and not that it matters much, but the correct spelling is Ufer, with an e.

Bkessler · 01-29-2008, 10:48 PM

I think all you need is 20 feet of rebar embedded in the concrete with the end sticking up where the panel will be located. Then the clamp is servicable.

Chris Johnson · 01-29-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkessler

I think all you need is 20 feet of rebar embedded in the concrete with the end sticking up where the panel will be located. Then the clamp is servicable.

Yah, that's what we did years back, for the past 3 years I have seen copper line being used, figured it was code change.

Bkessler · 01-29-2008, 11:27 PM

I have done the copper lining when it is specked out like in schools but I just wired a house in Santa Ana and it was just connect to the 20' of rebar and bond the water line. Although California throws a lot of surprises at ya!

Celtic · 01-29-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2005 NEC

250.52(A)(3)Concrete-Encased Electrode.

An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (1⁄2 in.) in diameter, or (20 ft) of bare copper conductor consisting of at least 6.0 m not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means.

Now, go give me something a little better than "orange"....no fruits, no vegetables.

Chris Johnson · 01-29-2008, 11:44 PM

Thank you MR. Celtic, I'll give you a new color option.

Not trying to split hairs here, can you define 'Direct Contact with Earth', the reason I ask, we are building on solid rock, no undisturbed earth within 100' of the new house (and even that is shallow (<2' deep) because of the rock we are on) other than the fill being brought in for landscape purposes at the end of the job.

Celtic · 01-29-2008, 11:54 PM

The pour would need to be in direct contact with the earth(dirt)...which you seem to have none of

How is the plumbing being brought in on this site?

Chris Johnson · 01-30-2008, 12:03 AM

Footings/foundation directly on rock, between 36" and 12" of 3/4 clear inside the house, plumbing gets put in that out the front (36" area) and taken to a holding tank/ejector tank, then pumped another 300+' to the septic tank and out to the field. 'Earth' fill will be brought in around the exterior of the house for landscape and to create drainage...No Basements in my neighborhood...unless your the bank.

So plumbings not an issue. What about the Ufer? Is this going to be an issue?

Celtic · 01-30-2008, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson

So plumbings not an issue. What about the Ufer? Is this going to be an issue?

I asked about the plumbing because of the way the code is written....IF you have a footing w/earth ~ go with the ufer(#3 in the image).....if NOT, copper plumbing(#1 in the image) would be a choice ~ IF in contact w/earth for 10' .

Quote:

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe.
A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

Chris Johnson · 01-30-2008, 12:09 AM

There is a well somewhere on the property, all the water feeds I've seen so far are the dreaded PVC.

Sounds like I pull the inspector in early, this sounds like a questionable thing only he can answer.

Bkessler · 01-30-2008, 12:10 AM

I think building on rock constitutes being in contact with earth. what do you know about two service drops for one property?

Chris Johnson · 01-30-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkessler

what do you know about two service drops for one property?

I ran into this one last year, ask for an upgraded service from PG&E...no charge, do a new service and bend over

they won't even kiss you

Celtic · 01-30-2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson

There is a well somewhere on the property, all the water feeds I've seen so far are the dreaded PVC.

Sounds like I pull the inspector in early, this sounds like a questionable thing only he can answer.

I agree.
From the description given, it really needs a set of eyes on it and whats around that can be used here.

Sorry.

Celtic · 01-30-2008, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkessler

I think building on rock constitutes being in contact with earth.

Is rock conductive?

I know we have driven rods 20+ feet and added some pixie dust in rough terrain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkessler

what do you know about two service drops for one property?

I dunno?
What do you want to know?

I do know you should probably start a new thread for extra eyes

Bkessler · 01-30-2008, 12:19 AM

I did start it an hour ago there's just been no reply's.

cmec · 01-30-2008, 09:54 AM

Hi Everybody
I understand what the code says but,
Anyone ever heard that copper on rock under the footer will crack it in a lightning hit ,your suppost to cover it with gem, so it absorbs water and has a place to expand so it dosent crack the footer

also the grounding detail celtic shows isnt everything suppost to be terminated on a buss bar?

thom · 01-30-2008, 10:37 AM

Boy, you guys do your ufers differently than we do.

Our foundations are not deep, there is no frost heave here, so we go 16" below grade minimum.

The footing has two parallel pieces of rebar, continuous (lapped and tied joints all). One piece of rebar is bent up, projecting up through the footing and stemwall where it terminates above grade. The electrician attaches his bonding wire to the rebar with a standard ground clamp, in the wall. the connection must be accessible so we screw a mud ring to the stud adjacent to the connection and put a double blank cover on it.

Ponsse · 01-30-2008, 08:19 PM

The concrete guys around here will either bend the rebar up inside where the wall will be underneath the future panel, or if they're pouring a slab they will leave a long piece of bar out past the forms so we can connect to the rebar outside the building just like if it was a ground rod