Shocked horses - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

tgeb · 02-07-2007, 12:38 PM

We have a problem with horses getting shocked while drinking from water troughs.

There are 5 troughs each has a stock tank heater in it that is powered by new extension cords.

The water troughs are plastic.

When an unsuspecting horse or pony sticks his face in to get a drink they about jump out of their skin.

Any of you sparkies have any ideas on what the solution to this might be. It just started today.

I have to get this worked out right away, these horses (about 25-30 of them) need to be able to get water and with out the heaters....well they don't like ice.

I am thinking of maybe dropping a grounding wire into the trough and run it to a stake. Do you think this will work?

Any ideas on diagnosis would be appreciated.

CE1 · 02-07-2007, 03:58 PM

From past experience with stock animals, they are sensitive to the smallest voltage. So it might and might not be something simple.

Need more information on the heaters, do they have grounded 3 prong plugs? If so, are the extension cord(s) pluged into a grounded outlet?

It might be that the ground potential between what they are standing on and the water in the troughs is not the same.

CE1 · 02-07-2007, 05:20 PM

After thinking about this....Did you happen to stick your finger in the water to see what would happen?

Attachment 4470

You might not feel a thing.(dead or alive)

Try driving a metal stake in the ground near enough to the water trough to attach the wire of one of those car voltage testers probes and stick the probe in the water to see what happens.

Attachment 4471

tgeb · 02-07-2007, 06:26 PM

I tried the hand in the water and touched a metal fence post...nothing happened. Well, my hand got wet.

I went up this afternoon with one of those little testers that fits into a 3 prong outlet, and has the 3 lights to let you know if there is an open ground or hot nuetral reverse etc. well all the outlets checked out fine as well as the extension cords which are only 12 to 25 feet in length.

All of the outlets are GFCI except one which does have a long (75-100') cord.

All the heaters are three prong and intact. A couple are mounted in the trough the other 3 are floaters.

When I first got there the heaters had been unplugged for a few hours, and the horses would drink.
I checked the outlets and cords for frayed areas loose or missing prongs and checked the outlets with my tester. All looked OK so I plugged two heaters into 2 troughs that sit next to each other, one fixed heater one floater.
A couple horses drank while we stood and watched with no problems.

I went to check out the other units at the other fields all seemmed OK so I plugged em up and went back tell them I found no problems.
By this time the horses in the first field were acting funny and sure enough, they seemed to be getting a jolt when attempting to drink.

I started to think maybe static eletricity because they all have on heavy blankets,and the air is unussually dry, the ground is mostly frozen and might not conduct the static away normally, but if this were the case..it would not matter if the heaters were on or not.

I'm sort of at a loss, I told them to get the landlord to call an electrician, and see what they think.

Might have to get these horses rubber shoes!

I am open to any suggestions, Thanks.

thom · 02-07-2007, 06:41 PM

You could get a sensitive digital voltmeter and test the potential between the ground and the water. If you find potential, start unplugging the heaters until you find the one.

These digital voltmeters are inexpensive.

jmic · 02-07-2007, 06:52 PM

Tom,
I think the horses are just pulling your leg

Ever watch Bud commercials

? They're pretty smart ya know.

CE1 · 02-07-2007, 06:59 PM

Required reading:http://www.bae.umn.edu/extens/aeu/aeu2.html

This applies to dairy cows but some of it applies to your problem.

MSSI · 02-07-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CE1

After thinking about this....Did you happen to stick your finger in the water to see what would happen?

Attachment 4470

You might not feel a thing.(dead or alive)

Try driving a metal stake in the ground near enough to the water trough to attach the wire of one of those car voltage testers probes and stick the probe in the water to see what happens.

Attachment 4471

DC ??

My guess is one of the heaters is compromised.. Testing it with a plug in circut checker wont pick up the fault. Probably not enough potential between the horses feet and tounges to trip the gfi either....When dry and circut is off, with a good meter check continuity from isolated hot terminals of heater to its casing. Compare them to each other, If one is noticably higher. Replace it and see if this solves the problem...

Grounding the water should work(temporary solution for slight element fault) but your not solving the problem..

painterman · 02-07-2007, 07:58 PM

I'm not a sparky but have had the same problem on our farm. We had stray voltage. About 2-5 volts to ground. This can kill a horse. Had a bonding problem in the fuse panel. Try pluging each heater into a dedicate GFI. It should trip the GFI if it is a heater.The problem may be in the panel.
good luck.

CE1 · 02-07-2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSSI

DC ??

This tester also can be used to test for low voltage AC which is what you would be looking for. The light on the tester would light up if there was a small differental voltage between the water and ground.
This is a common problem in the dairy farming industry because farm animals are more sensitive to electricity. Stray voltage will actually have a negative effect on the cow's milk production.

tgeb · 02-07-2007, 09:05 PM

OK, I have both a bulb tester and a digital Multi meter. I'll give both a try, maybe tomorrow.

The puzzling part for me is that these heaters are placed about 1,000 or more feet from each other, in sort of a triangle configuration.

Lower left 2 heaters about 30 feet apart, lower right 2 heaters 5 feet apart, apex of triangle 1 heater. Problem at each location.

The heaters are all less than 1 year old, (not that it means they can't fail), just seems odd that 1 or more would produce the same result at 3 separate locations.

Thanks for the link CE1, I am a little familiar with the equipotential plane thingy for indoor stuff, I just have never seen something like this outdoors.

One of the problems I have is getting the horse or pony to be a guinea pig and test the water while making adjustments, after a couple hits they really shy away from the trough.

Oh, and Joe, you're right they are smart...but as smart as they are is as dumb as they are, Thank God they cannot be house trained is all I can say!

Sparky Joe · 02-07-2007, 09:58 PM

Like CE1 said, farm animals are very sensitive to any voltage. Heightened senses and all.
I'm sensitive to this situation because I feel for all helpless/caged animals.

Try the "trip" buttons on all your GFI's and try to put the one heater that's not on one on a GFI.

The meter you have may not pick up anything, it seems the more they cost the more sensitive they are. And the small probe of the meter in the ground probably won't represent 2000 pounds planted over 4 wide hooves of a horse.

I wish you the best of luck. -Joe

rhinoguy · 02-07-2007, 11:23 PM

Do you know how hot the heater elements get? In particular the part that contacts the water. If it doesn't get over 150 degrees or so you could try dipping the element in epoxy, like J.B.Weld. That is an amazing insulator. And not likely to come off. Should prevent corrosion too. It will also slow the heat transfer a bit, but not much.

Able · 02-09-2007, 12:43 AM

Intalling a ground rod should help. The problem sounds like several instances we've had locally were bad bonding and grounds on sub panels were the culprits. Check the main ground first and then move on to panel connections and then branch circuits.

You said it's been very dry, what kind of ground electrode do you have? If the ground around it is not very conductive and it's really dry too then there might be issues there.
Is there any industrial delta systems close to you?

Sparky Joe · 02-09-2007, 06:53 PM

Able makes a good point, though I had a different idea;

Try bolting a lug to the steel water troughs, and connecting a #12 wire from the trough back to the ground of the receptacle(or where accessable) from the circuit or anywhere there's a solid ground in the electrical system(perhaps even a metal water pipe)

tgeb · 02-09-2007, 07:26 PM

Thanks for all the ideas guys.

I have not had a chance to get back out there to try any of your suggestions yet.

I think I will have some time tomorrow and I'll let you know what comes of it.

The landlord has been unresponsive as far as getting anyone out to take a look at it. I feel bad for the horses, it really seems to freak them out to get out of their routine, and right know they are drinking from buckets placed next to the troughs so they can get water.

Sparky Joe · 02-09-2007, 07:59 PM

I've ridden horses a few times, but never been much into them.

Though on a job a couple weeks ago I would sit in the van on break and lunch and watch the horses this place had(about 12 of them), and they really are interesting animals.

Of course their beauty, but also their social behaviors are very neat to watch.

They reminded me a lot of how dogs act(that are kept in different kennels then brought together to play and eat). With the same personality traits and everything. Nothing like big dumb cows which I had always associated them with in the past.

tgeb · 02-21-2007, 06:51 PM

I want to thank you all for your input on this!

The power company, Allegheny Power was out to the farm today.

The Misses said they had 3 guys there for 1/2 of the day and they finally tracked it down to 1 of the 5 heaters that was somehow back-feeding almost 40 volts to the other 4.

No one can figure why the GFCI's didn't trip, though she said some mornings they would have to be reset. They were not clicking off the way you would expect.

Anyway I thought you would like to know the resolution.

The Horses are happy, the Wife is happy!

mdshunk · 02-21-2007, 07:51 PM

Allegheny is the main power company in my market, also. They take stray voltage very seriously. They had to reimburse one of my customers almost $90,000 for low milk production, because he could document just how much and when his milk checks started to taper off. In his case, it was due to a faulty lightning arrestor on the central pole.

tgeb · 02-21-2007, 08:47 PM

Well from what she told me, they do take it seriously.

They sent the "geek squad" 3 guys in a little car. They apparently were very thorough, and all younger men under 30-35.
Most of the lineman we see here are "old school". The younger crowd doesn't seem too interested in the trades.

Since it was not on "their end" I suppose the land owner will get a bill on this.

Hopefully it won't take the animals too long to adjust and get used to drinking from the troughs again.