Rescuing Homeowners From Themselves

Magnettica

Does your company do work where the HO thought he could all the work himself, then finds out that it's not as easy as it looked on tv? I understand that we make money on ignorant fools like this, but how much of your work comes via the homeowner in despair? I am on a job now, that our company took over after a "construction-type" thought he could do both plumbing and electrical. It wasn't the worst work I have ever seen, but certainly not up to code or quality that I believe customers expect.

the house is a 3-story, 3 family "building" built around 1900-1910. Some old wiring was altered or changed or both, and some is new. A sub panel was added to the laundry room. In general, and in my professional opinion, all of his electrical work should have been ripped out and i should have started from scratch. but that's not what I was told to do and not what the customer wanted to pay for.

my question is this:

Would you have taken on a job like this under these conditions or would you have insisted on starting over again?

P.S. Everything is being billed as time and materials and there are still several violations that I am just waiting for the inspector to call out.

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GregS

Then maybe the inspector will help you keep your conscience clear if they see all the violations and tell the HO they need to be fixed.

Magnettica

That's what I'm hoping for. I've called to their attention some of the problems but they seem more concerned with finishing and moving in than they do in having the job done right the first time. For instance, yesterday they both asked me if I was done wiring their laundry room and if they could begin to hang the sheetrock. I tell them straight up, "no, you're gonna have to wait for the inspection process" and today the rock was up and paint was being applied. What a PITA!!

I'll post some pics Sunday morning.

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mdshunk

The best you can do is make it safe and make it code-compliant. Forget about making it pretty, since it's substantially not your work. Do your best to make lemonade out of the lemons you were dealt.

I used to take jobs like this pretty personal, and it really put me in a foul mood. The more of them I did, the more I calmed down. You can't blame them for trying, I guess. Just make it safe and move on.

Celtic

As an EC - RIP IT OUT...ALL OF IT. I will take absolutely NO liability from this job.

As an EI - I'd have to see it and determine what I would allow and just how high the fines would be. I might waive the fine if the HO and EC agreed to rip it out.

The mere fact that these HO would pull this on a 3 family shows that have little or no regard for public safety, their tenants, future owners and future tenants of the property.

These people better pray to GAWD that that is a LEGAL 3-family.

I'm sure the inspectors will be equally as PO'ed with these shenanigans.

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Tiger

My Work Order/Contract states I'm not responsible for HO work. I also usually note on the invoice any dangerous conditions that are left that I notice. Let's face it, they're not going to pay you to fix it and you're not going to work for free. What else can you do? You can't make people care.

Dave

thom

Only had to deal with that **** a few times in 30years. I'll talk to the inspector before he gets to the site, explain the problem to him and ask him to red tag the job. That put's the ball back in the customers court.

cmec

I have always found that no one is as smart as a do it yourselfer at least in his opinion and it is difficult to make them happy, had one that started an addition himselfe and told us it was taking us too long to fix his bs work then he started about the bill ,he knew everything but didnt know enough to file a no lein agreement 30 days prior to the start so I slapped a lein on the job when he went to get a loan and couldnt he called and asked for a release ,I told him you know everything why you asking me questions?

Then I gigged him for intrust legal fees etc.

So we dont do that type of work and leave that work for craigs list/moonlighters and service magic

Bubbles

Mag,

I just finished one of those yesterday. Owner (Electrical Engineer) thought he would re-wire 3 story house built in 1902. Whew...talking about code violations....he didn't know you couldnt hide j-box's all over, load calcs, spacings, on and on. It took 2 of us basically a year to complete and we just passed final yesterday. Took 5 red tags and we did. All red tags were finding things owner did and not us. We were T&M and we got paid weekly and permit was under homeowners name with safe contract so I wasnt worried but, not sure if I would do that again.

I guess it was winter thats why we took it initially....

genexelectric

wow we have them runin amuk in colorado. i get 3 or 4 calls a month sayin somthing like i was doing good till the flash, or i got scared when the fire ball rolled out or the panel. i have learned that people are cheep. and will even risk fire to meet the budget. maybe we should use scare tactics with them and let them know it will burn.also my insurance is very strick about how i state my quotes and disclosure of existing conditions.

Magnettica

Hey thanks for the stories and advice. I have a feeling that I get 'stuck' with all these type jobs because I know how to get them done. I can't tell you how many headache jobs like this one I have done over the years. I guess it's true that experience is what gets you through it. When I'm on my own I'd like to believe that I'll have it in my contract that I'll start from scratch or I won't take the on the job. Figuring out someone elses crap work is too much of PITA and of course the liability issues HAVE to be considered.

Thanks for letting me vent.

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mdshunk

Yes, it is a pain, and yes liability issues have to be considered. Checking over all the existing work very well and making any corrections can be just as good as tearing it out and starting from scratch. These are normally T&M jobs anyhow, so it's not like if you take too long you're going to bust the profit. That said, the only way I'd ever give a fixed price would be if I tore it out and started over fresh.

220/221

We occaisionally get involed in crap like that but only if the money is there to do whatever it takes.


We just finished up with one....in court.

Gave HO bid a year ago for a huge addition....maybe 6000'.


Red flags galore.

1. The LADY decided to play contractor.
2. Her brother was a sparky in another state.
3. She bought the materials and her brother started the job (hung and fed an interior 40 space sub panel)
4. She calls us and wants us to T&M it.

This job is about 30/40 minutes from our shop.

We asked the guys if they wanted some overtime, they said yes so we took the job T&M to be paid DAILY because of the red flags.

We got it roughed in and all hell started to break loose. The structure started to sag. My guy points out the red sticker on the trusses that says BEARING SUPPORT POINT where the "framers" removed a 20' long wall.

Job comes to a halt and she makes up a reason not to pay us for that day.

Weeks go by with no response from her. Finally she emails us saying that we charged too much, didn't work the whole time we were there, opened a roll of romex and didn't use it (so she couldn't return it), yada, yada, yada. She is not going to pay the $1400 due.

We did a pre emptive strike and leined the house and filed a small claims suit against her. Sure as sh!t she calls the ROC (first call ever against us) and cries foul. We had everything documented including the original bid we gave her which was right in line with where we were.

We won easily, although it cost more in time and effort than we were awarded.

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Just because it's within code doesn't make it safe.

Just because it's against code doesn't make it unsafe.

Magnettica

^^^

Sounds like that house that Carmella built in the last season of The Sopranos! Her father built it with pine studs, headers, and joists.

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Here are some pics....


Here is the mess I was dealt. Notice the cables coming up through the floor rather than the floor plate where they should be coming up from.



They're still coming through the floor and in this pic you'll see I tried to make it a little better by adding a 2x4 on the flat to secure the cables.





I hope the inspector fails it so I can add some intregity to this panel. Suprisingly, the plumber/ electrician has isolated his neutrals from his equipment grounds and had all of his MWBC's on seperate phases. Some of the circuits are 240 volts.



Romex/ BX, what's the difference?



Here is Mike in this short attic disconnecting an old bx cable that was going to a box in the kitchen that would have been covered over by the new kitchen base cabinets. This is clearly one of the advantages of being 38 with brains and experience as compared to having neither at the age of 21. lol.



The kitchen "rough" is ready for inspection.



The kitchen island has alot going on including stoves, dishwashers, island receptacles, and other "stuff".



Dining room/ kitchenette is also ready for the "rough" inspection.

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Celtic

How'd you get all those buckets and things to stick to the wall?

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Magnettica

Yeah.... and who puts windows on the floor?

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mdshunk

Just think of how much better of a troubleshooter you'll be because of jobs like this one. When you see all the ways DIY's cobble things up, that will help you. When you're on a job years from now, and things aren't adding up, your mind might flash back to something from this job or another similar one.

cmec

mag

If I am reading this right you are somones employee on this job if you are ok then your employer needs a few smart pills .
If not and you are a contractor why would you want your name and any liability associated with this mess ever see an a---hole burn off in romex not to mention,electrical code violations, the structrual defects created and if there ever was a permit pulled and inspection wallboards boards on the wall already .
I would of told them tear it out and start over or find another electrician.

cmec

GSE

All well and good except he in a New Jersey contractor, that job by law must have a written contract with scope of work and an agreed price, that is a small job, there should no problem estimating a price for that job.

The Owner clearly violated the law, when he attemted to do the work himself, on a commercial property, with a look at the Pic's of work in progress, it is clear the existing work should be torn out and start over, I would never expose my company to this liability mess.

Magnettica

Yes, I work for somebody, and yes I hate going to this job. As far as I am concerned I am done working here until inspection, but I bet I'll have to go back there for some nonsense tomorrow. I do the best I can but damn it's frustrating at times.

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