Power Saver, BS?

protechplumbing

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure an electro-mechanical meter would be able to tell the difference too. Think about it. The meters measure KWA not Amps or KVA.

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Electric_Light

If you buy six eggs every time and use all six eggs, you only carry it once. This = power factor 1.0

If you buy a dozen eggs and use six eggs, then send the remaining six eggs back, you still used only six eggs, but you double the traffic. This = power factor 0.5

In either cases, you're only using six eggs. If you're only billed for the number of eggs used, you pay the same amount (as in the case of home users). If you pay for the wasted resources for returning half of them(as in the case of C&I users) you'll be assessed a penalty.

kW demand is another factor. A factory that can run on one man working off and on totaling eight man hours is has a less "demand" than a factory that accumulates the same man hours, but suddenly needs eight men to work for half an hour twice a day. Both totals eight working hours, but latter is without doubt costly since you have to secure the capacity of eight laborers at once.

Now, about digital meters. Not only can they track usage habits, meters can be read wirelessly or some units support sending the information over the power line reducing labor cost and errors.

Electric_Light

If that thing does anything, it leaves your wallet lighter by $300... and your insurance company might do everything to not pay your claim if it starts a fire considering it's a non-UL listed appliance and the usage is not compliant with NEC. They're some el-cheapo capacitors made in Mehico or China, and sold at 300x the cost.

I watched the snakeoil seller's demo video. The video is full of crap. Naturally, induction motors draw a current relatively high compared to name plate even under _zero load_ which is what this demonstration is showing.

As the load increases, the current will also, but not proportionately. The power factor will increase significantly, as well as wattage consumption as the load increases.

KennMacMoragh

I remember studying power factor in an electrical class I took. From what I recall, it switches the type of power drawn from real power to apparent power. So the line is still drawing the power but the meter can't pick it up. I also remember my instructor saying that some industries who run large electric motors get a power factor correction bill from the power company. It is because they are using the power but the meter isn't picking it up. Some electric motors will change the power type that is drawn.

I haven't seen anyone here completely explain how it works, not many people can. I remember an electrical engineer asking me how it worked, he said he could never really understand it. I never completely picked up on it either, the physics gets pretty involved, it's all about real power, apparent power, and reactive power.

Electric_Light

You're talking about a synchronous motor, which can correct a cos phi power factor correction. This is fine for motor loads.

It's explained pretty well here. http://tristate.apogee.net/mnd/msfcalc.asp
Synchronous motors are good as you can continuously adjust the amount of reactive power they make and with a proper control gear, it's pretty much like cruise control.

Back in the days, power factor was voltage x amperage x cos phi

In today's world, power factor is better defined as:
(real power)/(Trms V * Trms A)

Real power is computed by multiplying voltage and current multiple times over each cycle, then dividing the sum by the number of samples(modern digital sampling type meters) or doing this continuously (analog integration in mechanical power meters and "digital display" power meters utilizing analog four-quadrant integration IC)

The difference is due to power factor change caused by a non-sinusoidal current, which can't be corrected by traditional methods. These power factor reductions are a pain to correct and must be corrected at the device level. This is why European Union requires all new computer power supplies to be internally PFC'd.



Anyone familiar with fuel injection? With older design, it was common for fuel to be sent back to the tank by a return line, so it doesn't stagnate in the injectors, vaporize and cause a vapor lock.

So the fuel going into the supply line would be the "apparent" fuel usage even though some gets sent back to the tank. In this case, the fuel tank is acting as the power factor corrector, so the "returned" fuel doesn't have to be returned to the gas station.

KennMacMoragh

I've heard analogies like that to understand electricity. Like water going through a pipe, or air pressure, or golf balls going through a tube. Now you're comparing it to buying eggs at a grocery store then returning them, and gas pumping through your car. Interesting way to look at it. I see your analogy, but I was thinking of how it works from a physics stand point. Like what is going on with the electrons, current, and voltage, and how it is making your power bill go down.

protechplumbing

I agree with electric light.

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Electric_Light

How it affects the power bills... easiest way to look at it.

Even though the amount of product "used" or "kept" is the same,

You get to buy a bunch now, then return later and only pay for what they kept. (i.e. residential power users and Wal-Mart)

If you buy a bunch, then return the remaining, you have to pay for what you kept + restocking fee/surcharge (i.e. commercial power users and Worst Buy and Sears as of late)

In actuality, power factor is affected when voltage waveform and current waveform are not in phase (cos phi shift, i.e. motors) and/or current waveform is not identical to voltage waveform (harmonic distortion, i.e. SMPS and magnetic ballasts)

protechplumbing

I think you have a typo in there.

I think what you ment to say was that the voltage waveform and the current wave form.

You said: "is affected when current waveform and current waveform"

I just wanted to clear that up so know one gets confused. Do go on. Your very good at explaining things.

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protechplumbing

See video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIThybewb_o

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Aframe

After reading through this thread it's sounds like the attachment for your phone that lets you get free long distance and other features for only $19.99 a month

protechplumbing

Actually, that one is for real. My brother has it.

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Electric_Light

That's called Vonage.

protechplumbing

This should put all arguments to rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIThybewb_o

Any questions??

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TopFloor

+ YouTube Video

+ YouTube Video

You got me. There seems to be 'proof' supporting both sides of this story. When that happens, I go by my gut feeling. My gut tells me its negligible.
But, this is one heckuva post. I know squat about electricity but STILL find the debate captivating.

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Immanuel

There is a problem with that second video test.

I'll be honest and admit that i'm no power factor expert, but to do that test correctly, IMO, what he should have done is measured the line without the PF correction device, switched on a significant motor load ( like the A/C unit ) and then watched the readings. Then he should have done the same thing with the PF correction load device turned on.

I would like to know if we would have seen a KWH jump or spike without the PF correction device on, as well as what we would have seen with the device on.

protechplumbing

You are kidding right? That first video was not even a test of any kind. They just talked about it.

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protechplumbing

Uhh, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I did in my video bud. I had every motor load in the house running and when the unit was switched on or off no change in kilowatts was observed. Go back and watch it again. If KWs don't go down then neither does your power bill. Simple as that.

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Immanuel

I watched the video 3 times .. i know what you did. Now, why not actually go back and READ WHAT I WROTE instead of just getting all defensive. As for the first video ... i agree completely with you, it isn't a test ... but then again it never claimed to be.

To my understanding a PF correction device works primarily when a motor load is in START-UP .. so having the motor load running and turning the PF correction device on and off like a light switch is no test.

protechplumbing

It's a mute point because it's still only lowering volt-amps not watts. You are billed for watts not volt-amps. The meters can tell the difference (just like mine did in the video)

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