Play The Electrical Inspector - -

Mike Finley

Jetted tub fails electrical inspection.

Inspector says

#1 The stranded wire grounding of the tub isn't right. Wants a solid wire ground.

#2 Grounding to the manufacturer supplied grounding connection on the motor (or near it maybe) going to a nearby copper pipe isn't right. He wants the ground connected from the tubs roman tub filler to the copper pipe, because the plumbers used Pex and there is no direct ground from the roman tub filler because of the Pex.

What do you say?

JamesNLA

#1 the inspecter is right. Should be 8 gauge solid.
#2 hmmmmm I need a min to think about that
<edit>
I've thought:

Rule reads when homes plumbing water lines travels through a pump, that pump needs to be bonded to the copper pipe. Since you have no copper pipe available, I would think you would have to run that line TO a copper pipe or the service ground buss. I have not heard of having to bond to a tub valve before. Nor do I know of an approved and listed clamp to do that.

<edit #2>
That can't be right. Should there be a problem and the ground actually be needed, there is NO direct path to the earth ground.
Gonna look it up while I wait for dinner

<edit#3>
That is BS. No jumper from motor to buss. From what I am gathering, it isn't required. Unless there is copper within 6 feet.......maybe.
What he is asking for sounds wrong. To jump from copper---the length of the pex, than to the filler? Did you piss this inspector off or somthin?

<edit#4>
He's right. You need to bond it together. If the entire house was done in PEX, different story. Have fun...that solid bare is $$$$

There is an alternative: Put a motor that has no lug to bond to, meaning, it has NO internal parts that are metal that come into contact with water!

POOLMANinCT

the lug on the motor can is not for grounding, it is a bonding lug... the motor ground is inside the can, probably a green 1/4" hex screw, to fasten the pig tail ground wire...
as far as the faucet & pex, makes sense to me...
I'm guessing he asked for
solid #8 run to bonding lug & faucet.....

I'm hoping mdshunk will pop up soon... & elaborate on bonding & grounding....

ray

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......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

mdshunk

I say he's right on both counts.

Here's your code:
(2002 NEC)
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems, metal parts of electrical equipment, and pump motors associated with the hydromassage tub shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid. Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating an approved system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal nonaccessible, non–current-carrying metal parts shall not be bonded.

(2005 NEC)
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

Whoever wired this tub should have known better. Jetted tubs are so popular nowadays, the electrician should have been down this road years ago when this type of tub got popular, and already learned. Maybe the apprentice wired it up?

POOLMANinCT

speak of the devil & he appears......

__________________
......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

Mike Finley

Bingo. Regular electrician was on vacation, we got the apprentice.

What I don't like is the main guy acting like this is inspectors choice, when apparently it's pretty simple code according to what you presented from the NEC.

I'm going to bring this up with my electrician and quote the NEC paragraphs. I'm not going to beat him with it or anything like that, but I do want to know why the confusion and what seems like BS with him acting like this is apples or oranges and just the inspectors whim to be followed.

Plus I'm not going to be paying anything for his time correcting this if it's as you guys are saying.

There is no doubt that the inspector is correct right?

Just to clarify, there is copper right to the tub, then about a 2 foot pex connections to the valve.

POOLMANinCT

finley,

jamesinla, must have been replying at the same time as me..
I'm a poolguy, not an e1... & I was able to answer your post....
though its basic "crossover theory" from pool construction.... I have never read the NEC.
& I rarely speak "out of school" it was just a no brainer....

ray

__________________
......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

mdshunk

The solid/stranded issue is a no-brainer. Must be solid.

The bonding issue is somewhat more complicated, but when you have a little section of PEX, they normally always want the motor lug, copper pipe, and metal stem on the underside of the spigots/filler all bonded together. That seems to line right up with the NEC.

I think it's safe to say that this red-tag wouldn't have happened if the electrician supervised the install.

Poolman's advice is sound, since the pool and spa rules are very, very similar to the jetted tub rules.

Mike Finley

Much obliged fellas.

mdshunk

In fairness to the electrician, I'm willing to bet that some inspectors enforce these requirements, and some do not. In practice (not in line with the code text), it may indeed be their choice. That's no excuse, but I'm just saying what he's probably experienced. I certainly take advantage of certain things that aren't traditionally enforced from time to time. It's bit me a time or two, also.

Mike Finley

Okay, well as long as we are talking about it, what I was told by him in regard to the grounding wire is that he has done stranded or solid and never had a problem either way.

He was also trying to call the inspector, he apparently knew him from previous jobs and was convinced he had a good shot if he could talk to him to get him to pass the tub as it was.

I like working with this electrician, we've used him on a ton of jobs, but it seems about every 5 or 6 jobs suddenly we get one of these burps. Stuff like this incident is what always gets me wound up and second guess myself. On the one hand it seems pretty clear the word SOLID is in the NEC code. So what's the deal with stuff like this?

We've had talks in the past about things like this and I've made it pretty clear that if there is ever any gray area that might trip us up with an inspector to always just do what will guarantee a pass, even if it costs a few bucks more or takes more time, just do it and pass it on to me. It simply isn't worth it to me to lose a day on a job over trying to get by with something that most of the time slips through.

I'm guessing that if he had done the job he would have most likely just ran solid himself, but since the 'kid' did it??? Doesn't want to bad mouth his guy? Doesn't want to make me think he has an incompetent guy? Honesty is the best policy for me.

mdshunk

It sounds to me that he's putting too high of a priority on getting in and out quickly, and overall economy (which are the typical builder concerns) rather than your more rare requirement that he not cause any delay in the schedule whatsoever. It would be good for you if he could iron things out over the phone, but the basic violation will persist. Who's on the hook for that, down the road?

Mike Finley

You might be right on the money, I'm wondering if he has a majority of customers who are all about get in and get out and do it cheap, and he is having trouble with getting into a different mind set with us? I remember now that he has mentioned on a few occasions some real estate flippers he does work for - that's a pretty good indicator right there! I thought we were pretty clear by now, but maybe it's time to talk about it one more time just to make sure. I've definitly notice him coming to me with things that might be a problem and telling me about them. He's brought up an issue here and there and explained how it might trip us up, and we've come to a consensus together on it.

It's more than likely this is all just bad timing with his vacation and the 'kid' being involved for the very first time with us. I've always had the main man on our jobs up until now. Probably not a bad idea to also make sure he knows having the 'kid' on this job should be a one time occurance and it's back to business as usual with him on our jobs.

mdshunk

Yes, I'd agree that this is the root cause of your present problem. Just a blip in the radar. You're getting the benefit of dealing with a small operator (the boss does most of the work, low overhead/prices), and one of the drawbacks is that he goes on vacation for a couple weeks a year and you get the #2 man.

mdshunk

That would be my best guess. If you like him otherwise, and he does okay for you most of the time, it's just an ongoing educational effort that is required on your part. Training subs on "your way" is an ongoing effort, since you only deal with them in passing. Particularly for you, since your model is different (but better, in my opinion) from the norm.

The challenge for you, as the GC, is to figure out a way to impart this education without frustrating the sub. If the subs frustration with doing things your way exceeds a certain threshold, he just won't work for you. Educational efforts towards subs are best doled out in bits and pieces, if you otherwise like the sub and wish to have him work for you long-term. {just general advice, not particularly related to this thread}

Mike Finley

That's good insight, makes sense.

MSSI

Perfect timing..I have a tub that I will probably get to on Friday, PEX with 5 individual(seperate valves)/filler/sprayer/diverter/hot/cold....What should I use to clamp the #8 to the valve bodies?? Thanks

Magnettica

Did the "electrician" protect the circuit with a GFCI OCPD?

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MSSI

I guess copper/brass saddle clamps will do....I guess I can get 2 #8s in there.