Plastic Piping Coming Into Residential Homes

jevorik

If You Have Plastic Hot & Cold Water Lines, Plastic Water Lines Coming In From The Outside, Plastic Gas Lines.... Now Where Would You Ground To?

Gas Black Pipe Are Stubbed At The Meter, Hot Water, Furnace And Fireplace.... Now Where Do You Ground To?

Ufer Ground Or/and 2 Ground Rods????

Speedy Petey

New house or service upgrade?
If a new house, under NEC 2005 a ufer is mandatory if there is any rebar present. If so then no other electrodes are required if the water is all plastic.

DO NOT use the gas pipe as a grounding electrode!

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Sparky Joe

Pete always sneaks in every once in a while to snag the easy ones

Speedy Petey

?????????????

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Sparky Joe

just rarely see you anymore Pete that's all

jevorik

Question #1:
If you have a new house with a basement with a 200A single phase service with PVC pipe sch 80 between meter and panel. Some contractors want to install a #4 with the (3) 2/0 wires to bond panel to meter. One utility company in our area demands that we do so.

Is this paralleling and illegal? Yes or no

Is it a code violation? Yes or no

Question #2:

Same scenerio. Using metal pipe between the panel and meter with bonding bushings does this parallel the neutral? Yes or no.

Question #3:

Same Scenerio. Is this correct: Ground Rod with #6 wire from meter,
and a #4 wire from panel to water meter with copper piping coming in underground.
Do we have to come out of panel to ground rod?

Question#4:
Same Scenerio. The underground water coming in is plastic, do we bond to 1st means of copper pipe?

Question #5:
Same scenerio. Gastite (flexible gas pipe), the manufactorer says ground wire to black metal pipe... with a #4 wire?? to gas meter?? Also flex is used throughout house except for stubs from 1)gas meter, 2)furnace, 3)water tank, 4)fireplace...Do we bond all of these and if so what size wire? Are wires to be continuous from gas meter, furnace, water tank, fireplace and etc.?

Question #6:
Same scenerio: Now we have flexible hot and cold water lines and flexible gas lines. Plastic pipe is used for underground water service. Where do we run our ground wire to? UFER ground?
(this is a huge problem)

All input is appreciated

macmikeman

Concrete encased electrodes (uffer) have been required by code for a long time. The difference between 2005 and before 2005 is the change of wording from "if available" to "if present". I been putting CEE's in for years. I got there before the slabs got poured. A lot of inspectors never saw such a thing and I used to hear "What is this? Fix that!" alot. "If present" means that if you miss it before the concrete pour, you might get a request to chip and install one.

Sparky Joe

If this is a new building with rebar(half inch or larger) in the foundation then you need the ufer ground, aka concrete encased electrode.
If you have that and the water line is plastic then no other elctrode is required(unless there is building steel present)

Your bonding is required before first point of disconnect, so if your meter can has a main breaker then do it there.

Paralleling means you have 2 paths of current flow. If 2 or more wires are tied together in two or more places then they are parallel.
I think you are asking about the ground target which is where the ground, neutral and electrode conductors all tie together, if the ground and neutral are tied together anywhere else but the target then it is illegal.

As far as wire sizes, you'll have to look those up, too tired right now, and don't know off hand.

acrwc10

On a 200a service #6 is not going to cut it for the main ground. #4 copper. For the bonding #6 is fine but it dosn't sound like you need to fo any bonding because all of your piping systems are plastic and you don't need to bond the stubs that come out to the fictures.

Speedy Petey

Actually some of this is backwards.
Explanation:
- #6 is prefectly legal and acceptable for any size service, if the GEC is ONLY going to a ground rod(s). Even if this is the only grounding electrode. 250.66(A)
- #4 is required for a 200 amp service water bond and/or water pipe electrode. T250.66 and 250.104(A)
- The sole connection to a CEE is not required to be larger than #4 regardless of service size. 250.66(C)


Basically, for a typical 200 amp service, you must use #4cu for everything except the sole connection to a ground rod.

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acrwc10

I get so used to the way we do things thats what I get. Most of what I am running is to a uffer and to save effort I run one #4 from the main to the uffer "rebar out of the footing" then loop to the water main.

JamesNLA

Did a search on this because I have a situation similar to this.

Relocate and upgrade to 200A, 2 rods with 4CU. House has pvc main, than copper plumbing under house, THAN has various intterupts in both hot and cold piping to pex. Does the "metallic piping" system need to be bonded? If so, why with a plastic main?

Thanks

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"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

Speedy Petey

Metallic piping "systems" must be bonded in case they become energized.
A metallic main is also used as a grounding electrode, and the grounding electrode conductor also serves to bond the water piping system.

This is the problem with Pex. Great stuff, but plumbers are using it to repair and replace copper creating isolated sections of metallic piping.

It is up to you and your AHJ to determine just what a "piping system" is.

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Magnettica

I'm running into similar situations too.

For instance, pex-to-copper connections around the jacuzzi motor.

I've been bonding the copper pipe to the EGC.

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JamesNLA

If memory serves MD said a few years ago that the bond to non metallic piping with respect to a tub was to the filler and handles.

The rule reads the pipe is able to be energized...well hell I guess anything is possible.

With this one I just finished I went back and just jumpered everything. Took an hour or so. Next day the damn inspector shows. I wasn't there but the HO was. This tit open the panel door and asks ther HO for a screwdriver to take off the cover. HO says he didn't have one. Inspector says OK, where's the permit. Signs it and leaves. Never once did he even think of looking under the house where there was over 2000' of wire. The panes makeup was rather nice if I do say so myself, but come on. This is becomming an all to common occurance even with inspectors that I don't know.

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock