Picking A Neutral.

K2

I've been doing some occupancy sensors the last two nights. So I open the box full of wires and and I find the hot to the switch and interrupt that with my power pack wires which also supplies power to the relay so then I need a neutral. So if i have 2 or 3 neutrals in that box to choose from I go about finding the neutral that is actually running that light circuit and hook to that. I'm thinking that as small a load as the control section of the power pack is drawing I should be able to go to any neutral?? Maybe ?? I'm sure it would work but is it correct?? Thanks again.

ATS

Nope, can't do that. Never hi-jack another circuits neutral. It is a code violation and could result in someone getting killed in the future, no matter how small the load.

mickeyco

No it's not correct, you might be attaching to a dedicated circuit or using the hot off of one breaker on one leg and the neutral associated with a hot on a different breaker on the same leg. You need to find the correct neutral.

__________________
Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

220/221

Generally you'd be able to spot it because it would be paired up with the sw leg in a seperate conduit/mc. If they ran all the circuits thru the light boxes (they should be punished BTW) you need to trace it out. If there are no MWBC'c you could just disconnect and see if the light goes out.

__________________
Just because it's within code doesn't make it safe.

Just because it's against code doesn't make it unsafe.

GSE

Or could the whites be switch legs, and not neutrals? This is a two wire magician working on the circuit not an electrician. Might be best for him to get an electrician to do the work.

Remember he is calling the white wires in the box neutrals.

K2

I'm an electrician. Even got a an apprentice license in my state. I just don't know everything that's why I ask questions...I don't see too many whites that arn't neutrals on the work that I do and around here we have to color tape any white that is not a neutral on resi rope. .

K2

But "thanks" to the others for the help.

220/221

Uhhhh.....not legally. They could be hot if it was a suicide switch but I'm certain he already knows that.


I'm confused. What do they generally call white wires in your neck of the woods?

__________________
Just because it's within code doesn't make it safe.

Just because it's against code doesn't make it unsafe.

Tiger

We don't use the terms ungrounded and grounded conductors much here. Hot & neutral work for me. With NM, AC or MC you can get white switch legs if they aren't properly relabeled/colored. In this area they are never relabeled.

To the OP, imagine that area having a light circuit and a receptacle circuit. You connect to the hot of the light circuit, but the neutral of the receptacle circuit. In the future an electrician or homeowner kills the receptacle circuit (leaves the light circuit on) and opens up the neutrals, one on each bare hand. He can be electrocuted from the current of the control using that neutral. Remember that the current that locks a muscle so you can't let go is only about 100mA. Keep it safe for everyone and find the correct neutral.

Dave

Celtic

You can't be both an electrician and an apprentice

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Tin Cup

can you be a plumber and a drywall hanger ?

how about a HVAC guy and a painter ?

Electrician and carpenter ?

Bookeeper and Lead Salesman and Project Manager.

If not, please tell me, cuz last week I did them all and next week I've got to be a sign installer, painter, and carpet layer.

OK, I know what you mean. I did bring in my electrician and plumber, i just helped them while i insulated and hung the rock. wish i could find a drywall sander though.

Tin Cup

mickeyco

No

No

Maybe

No

__________________
Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

220/221

I was always taught (and it makes sense) to use the white as the HOT in these cases. That way you dont have two whites going to the fixture. I have no idea if the NEC mandates white or black.


In either case I am certain the whites the OP was referring to were not the power OR sw legs. He is installing occupancy sensors so he probably knows the power/switch thing.

__________________
Just because it's within code doesn't make it safe.

Just because it's against code doesn't make it unsafe.

Speedy Petey

It does.

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).

(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.

(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

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Celtic

Sure you be all those things at the same time...let me ask you this:
Can you be your own father?

An apprentice is just that, nothing more.
An electrician has gone through the apprenticeship and earned the right to be called an electrician.

Some goes for plumbers and their apprentices....and any trade that requires some sort of training.

Going up a level or two....today I hung a door - does that mean I'm a GC tom'row and a PM the following day?

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220/221

An apprentice electrician is simply a type of electrician.

If you do electrical work for a living you are an electrician.........or an idiot.

__________________
Just because it's within code doesn't make it safe.

Just because it's against code doesn't make it unsafe.

K2

Thanks Tiger for your explanation. Makes sense... I guess i should know that because I've gotten wacked a few time by those neutrals that are supposed to be dead.

K2

Yeah, around here they call electrical apprentices "electricians". My license card calls me an electrician. All the forms that go along with the program refers to apprentices as electricians. I think for useage in this state I used the term correctly.

Celtic

Since the debate now seems to hinge on word play and double-speak ...can we use more specific terms to avoid any confusion: apprentice and journeyman.

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K2

No.