mdshunk

I don't have any inspiring information to pass along, or a particularly challenging question to ask. I only have a gripe today.

Why do many electrician's insist on installing flush covers on surface mounted panels? This looks stupid and very jackleg to me. I guess these are from "builder pack" type panel kits, but perhaps some guys don't care.

If you're buying your panels from a real supply house, you have the choice... flush or surface. Why not use the right one? I can only think that some electrician's don't give a crap.

I also hate the so-called "combination covers", that are neither a good flush cover or a good surface cover. I'll order the right one if the supplier only stocks "combination covers" for a particular model of panel.

On a related note, why do some people insist on installing plastic and nylon flush covers on surface mounted handy boxes instead of handy box covers. This screams "Harry Homeowner was here", but I know many electricians that do this.

Cut it out, and use the right stuff.

Atricaudatus

I got another one: Not breaking off the yoke tabs when installing a device in a handy box, so the device doesn't fully seat properly and neither does the cover. It's only a fraction of an inch, but it bugs me.

__________________
-Rhett
Licensed electrician and plumber

fridaymean

I have a feeling this is going to be a long thread.

Speedy Petey

See, now I can't say that I have available to me alternate cover types, other than CH and QO of course. I use a lot of C-H's BR series. I have never been offered a surface cover and all their panels come with flush covers. Maybe that's all my guy stocks??
I stock a lot of BR breakers since most panels I come in contact with are BR compatable. I keep several "classified" breakers for the odd panels and a decent stock of HOM breakers since they are quite popular these days. I like them myself. I just wish they would come out with a copper buss version.

I am of the opinon that CH and QO are not really that much better than any other type of breaker on the market today. At least not for the added cost of the panels. I do have my prefrences though.
I do not use QO out of hatred of their outdated and assinine neutral/ground bar layout in their main panels. If they used the HOM layout I might change my tune.

__________________

ATS

I don't like the HOM panels whatsoever. Why is the neutral bus so close to the breakers load terminal screw, and why are the breakers sometimes so hard to get to snap in? I don't mind the CH BR or CH and really like the GE panels alot. I don't think the QO's are worth the money other than for the 22,000 aic rating, which you can still get for less $$ with other brands. I will say though that the QO breakers are very sensitive and responsive. I can't remember ever being given a choice for flush or surface (other than CH series where you must purchase the cover separately) even at the supply house where I live. I will say however, that it sometimes seems that our trade practices are dictated by what we happen to stock on the truck but I still break off the yoke tabs for heavens sakes! I guess I never really saw a problem with installing a blank nylon cover on a handy box but now that MD mentioned it, I vow to change my ways.

Sparky Joe

I don't understand why somw guys, when making up their panels, insist on bending a great big loop in each wire because they say it will help when breakers need to be moved. I see their logic, but for heavens sake make your panel pretty, who likes to see big gobs of wire stuffed into the sides of a panel.

K2

Panel covers. I ran into a Federal Pacific and the cover was clamped down on top of one side of the breakers holding them in the "on " position. I don't think anyone would have noticed until trying to switch something off. Not that the Fed Pacs would trip anyway.

I've heard some people say that Fed Pacs are OK. We have alot of them in this area and I've had nothing but bad luck and more bad luck with them. Of course i have one in my house that I've been meaning to get switched out.

mdshunk

Do you do many service upgrades? Perhaps not. Do a few, and you'll be singing praises to the old time electrician that left slack in each branch circuit termination, and cursing the one's made up tight.

That said, I go back and fourth on the matter (but not in the same panel). Some days I leave a loop, and other days I make them up straight into the breaker. Depends on my mood that day. Either way can be accomplished very neatly and workmanlike. Naturally, if you're working in a conduit panel with mostly stranded THHN branch circuits, it will take some well placed Catamounts and zip ties to dress the panel nicely. "Big gobs of wire stuffed inside the panel" is never a good ideal. Slack can be left in a neat manner. It's just a personal preference, and I don't care what method my guys use, so long as it is neat and uniform within the same panel or adjacent panels.

mdshunk

I know that you pretty much had to do that in past years, but the handy box covers I've been getting lately (Steel City, I think), don't need that done to sit down flat. They're no bigger than past one's, but I can't really tell you what's different about them.

On second thought, maybe it's the devices I use. Generally, I'm using P&S Trademaster devices, but I'm remembering now that I still have to break the ears off Hubbell devices when putting a handy box cover on.

I'm leaning more and more towards not using handy boxes at all. Ever done the box fill calc on one? Even the deep one's aren't good for much except a single device and one cable or set of THHN's.

I find myself using more 4 squares lately, as my truck is stocked with a few of each device version of RS cover for the 4 squares. I like the "CC" type of RS cover (crushed corner), since you don't have the extra long cover screws to lose like the regular RS covers use. The CC type of RS cover just uses the screws that come already installed in the 4 square.

I worked for a contractor once that did not permit any 1/2" EMT to be run for anything, and no handy boxes permitted for anything. 3/4" EMT and 4 squares were minimum requirements. I didn't like that very much, but I'm seeing the reasons behind it more and more as time passes by.

brian11973

For the panel covers. I usually use a flush cover in a basement. The extra lip isn't much. If the basement was to be finished, someone doesn't have to find the proper cover. I just did a finished basement, it had a Bryant panel in it. This would have been fun for the builder, to make it look good. I surely would not have done a panel change for this! If it were to probley not ever need a surface cover, such as a commercal building, I would get a flush cover, if I could.

For the extra wire. I do not put extra wire in a panel. I have done a few service changes that had a wire nut on ever single wire. Not fun at all, but it does fit. On a current addition, I removed about 40' of wire from a panel, I could hardly pull out the wire to trace a circuit. The grounds & neutrals went straight into the screws, the hots, all the way to the bottom & back up.This comes to a pet peeve of mine. This panel had all ground wires twisted together. Two at a time. I had removed several HR's form this panel. All I could do, to remove the grounds, was to cut them at the top of the panel & leave them in there. I like the CH panels. I can run the wire down between the box & neutral bus, around the bottom, & back up to the screws. A little extra wire, still looks neat. To get extra wire, just run the grounds & neutral to the farthest screw. Another pet peeve, guys that don't leave space for future breakers. I put in the 220 breakers, and try to leave a space or two for more 220 breakers. I have seen too many panels with the A/C beaker in the bottom. DUH! You know it's going in. Have you ever seen a panel with 100 amp subpanel breaker in the bottom? Shouldn't this be up by the main?

As for the handy boxes, I always break off the ears. I pull off the paper "washers" that hold the screws. Also, with a conduit, do you cut the screws going againist the conduit? It is fun trying to pull out a bent screw, do to the fact someone was too lazy to cut it. I just put in an extra cover plate screw in it. I have yet to put something other a handy plate on a handy box. Other than a GFCI on a panel. Other pet peeve, guys who can not cut cover plate screws, when they are too long.

Sparky Joe

I hear you on the cover plate screws, I watched my boss just today, who is a very good electrician I must point out. But while I was installing a light in a bathroom I watched him chip the tile from behind the cover plate screws of a GFI rather than just trim them down, I had to give him crap about it of course, I mean hell it'd be a lot easier to replace a messed up screw than a messed up tile.

fridaymean

One of my biggest pet peaves is when other trades come in and screw up someone elses work. It is unprofesional in my opinion. Or the hacks that come in and leave a huge mess all over your (and everyone elses) hard work. (Tile grout and paint seem to be the worst offenders.)

Sparky Joe

And the fire sprinkler morons, getting grease all over the lights and bending the hell out of the grid and the rust spots on the floor from their leaky connections.

Woz the Painter

And what about you sparky's who ram your wire carts into hollow metal doors, or drip gobs of yellow 77 on our finished walls?

Atricaudatus

Ah... Touche' !

I think Woz has a point. There are some inconsiderate arses in all trades.
I've had HVAC guys cut in the openings for their air vents using an eighteen inch sawzall blade, and cut right through branch circuits in the process.

Had untold numbers of outlets covered with sheetrock, and untold wires nicked, mauled and cut by their rotozips.

Had tile guys use my shower and tub spout stub outs as handy ladder rung.

The list is endless, and isn't specific to a particulat trade, just to a particular type of person: The Bastardus Dirtius Rottenus.

__________________
-Rhett
Licensed electrician and plumber